Divemasters/Resorts making you flood and clear?

[CompuDude]

I think part of the solution, docmartin is to get sunscreen that is really waterproof.

Oddly enough, another "Doc Martin" makes some that works really well -- I use it when teaching/assisting with Rescue classes: http://www.docmartinsmaui.com/

If you follow the instructions, this stuff does *not* come off in the water.

That would be pretty useful if it's truly waterproof.

I have yet to meet the sunscreen that doesn't wash off, no matter how strongly worded it's claims of waterproof-ness. My dermatologist agrees... best to assume not waterproof no matter what it says on the bottle.

If this stuff truly is waterproof, however... thanks!

 

[KrisB]

That would be pretty useful if it's truly waterproof.

I have yet to meet the sunscreen that doesn't wash off, no matter how strongly worded it's claims of waterproof-ness. My dermatologist agrees... best to assume not waterproof no matter what it says on the bottle.

If this stuff truly is waterproof, however... thanks!

Well, give it a shot... the only downside is I haven't figured out how to apply it to my scalp without shaving my head...

Let me tell you, I've never had it wash into my eyes, and it is a true PITA to get off the hands after applying (to the point where I'll strongly consider using disposable latex gloves next time I put it on).

Primary ingredient is carnauba wax...

 

[KrisB]

I also NEVER said I had a problem with clearing a mask or an inability to clear a mask or that I would object to doing so. In fact I think I have repeated that several times. Perhaps I should type more slowly? What I said was that I had a problem using my paid dive to demonstrate skills to someone who was not training me and to take time to watch a dozen others do the same. Oh, and who probably isn't qualified to instruct, either.

Careful. Anyone that is certified by PADI as a Divemaster is "qualified" to teach the Scuba Review program. Furthermore, my experience/observation has been that most professional "divemasters" are actually certified as instructors...

 

[friscuba]

I'm getting the feeling I'm in the minority on this, which is fine...that's why I asked, although I am not sure why people keep reading the issue as one of an inability or unwillingness to clear a mask.

FWIW the effect of saltwater or other irritants on eyes varies greatly form one person to the next. People with a tendency to dry eyes would normally be much more subject to this problem. Simply letting the eyes dry does not cure the problem, you have to tear-up enough to re-lubricate the eyes.

So here's a question. Since the consensus is that PADI certification standards are too low and we can't trust certification to mean much, shouldn't we test out a DM before going with him? You know, make him explain DCS symptoms and treatment, prove he can administer oxygen correctly, do a tired diver tow, have him remove and don equipment, that sort of thing? Anyone do this?

I got about this far before I couldn't hold back commenting....

Would you want to dive following a DM who hadn't been in the water in a year or two? I wouldn't, even though his certification is still good. I know master scuba instructors that have a handful of dives in the last several years, they're still paying their dues and "active" but I wouldn't want them teaching my family member if I had other options who were more current. Once you are dealing with someone who does it day in and day out, at least regularly, I'm not so worried.

Any time you go to a dive resort, odds are that a fair portion of the divers haven't been in the water in the past few days, weeks, months and maybe even years. Nobody really knows anything about the next person's skill level. A simple mask clearing and buoyancy check will identify divers with potential issues. This is good for everyone... those who need help will get the extra attention, those who don't will likely be watched a hair less and have a hiar more freedom. If you are stuck in a group of 4-6 divers, are you going to be thrilled diving knowing that others in your group might not even be able to do a mask clearing, this skill checkout eliminates that.

Including the eye irritation, this is 10-15 minutes out of your vacation that will give everyone around you a little peace of mind. If you want your dive vacation to be "all about you" go ahead and be the one diver at the resort who refuses to participate in this skill checkout - others will definitely be talking all about you.

I happen to work in a location where skill checkouts are NOT the norm. I can see where it's a good idea though, as on occasion you have divers who can't perform the most basic of skills, that they likely had little or no trouble doing in earlier days, and it slows down the entire group.

If I were going to that resort, I'd have no problem taking the time to do any skill they want me to do to satisfy their requirements. If I'd just loaded up with sunscreen and my eyes were going to burn for a few minutes, so be it, it'd be over soon and then I could get on with enjoying my vacation.


,,, edit,,, After reading the thread, it seems your biggest problem is with the paid dive aspect. Just think of it as part of the first dive... everyone else has to do it so it's not that big of a deal. They could just as easily say everyone is required to do a pool session and only allowed one "real" checkout dive at full price on thier first day - your only option would be to find a different resort with a different policy.

Steve

 

[KrisB]

Steve,

There's a mom-and-pop dive op (the only one) on Molokai that requires a complete checkout dive (that you pay $150+ for, as there's no shore diving, just boat diving from their boat, apparently) before taking you on the 3-tank extended ($275) trip.

As an active instructor on Maui, I find this idea a little hard to swallow. I'm familiar with the local environment, my skills are "demonstration quality" and I've been diving as much (if not more) as their DM's in the past several months.

It's not the principle that I'd argue against -- I have no problem demonstrating my demonstration quality skills. I *do* have a problem with requiring me to pay $150 to demo them, so that I can pay *EVEN MORE* to do another few dives. And personally, $275 for three dives feels a little steep, especially when there's a 4-person minimum booking.

 

[jd950]

I have come to better appreciate the idea of a checkout dive. I still think it should not be paid-for dive, but its not like it would ruin my trip if it is. My original post posed two questions, how common this was and if anyone else felt it was unreasonable to have a dive operator charge for a dive, or perhaps even the dive and gear rental, and then require you to use the time and air to demonstrate skills. I also raised the question concerning the "testing" of people who were certified, but that was secondary.

In my particular case, having to remove/replace/clear my mask at the beginning of a "real" dive is more of a drag than for some, due to my sensitivity to seawater in my eye. But, if that's how it is, then that's how it is. I never suggested that I would refuse to do it or throw a tantrum on a dive boat.

I am not sure that I agree that mask clearing would be the best test, I guess getting a mask knocked off, and panic as a result, is more common than I would have thought.

 

[KrisB]

I am not sure that I agree that mask clearing would be the best test, I guess getting a mask knocked off, and panic as a result, is more common than I would have thought.

Mask issues are also typically the ones that students have the most panic-inducing problems with. The next one on the list is reg recovery. If you have those two skills perfected, the only other one I'd bother "testing" is hovering.

 

[friscuba]

Steve,

There's a mom-and-pop dive op (the only one) on Molokai that requires a complete checkout dive (that you pay $150+ for, as there's no shore diving, just boat diving from their boat, apparently) before taking you on the 3-tank extended ($275) trip.

As an active instructor on Maui, I find this idea a little hard to swallow. I'm familiar with the local environment, my skills are "demonstration quality" and I've been diving as much (if not more) as their DM's in the past several months.

It's not the principle that I'd argue against -- I have no problem demonstrating my demonstration quality skills. I *do* have a problem with requiring me to pay $150 to demo them, so that I can pay *EVEN MORE* to do another few dives. And personally, $275 for three dives feels a little steep, especially when there's a 4-person minimum booking.

$150 for a check out is nuts, but 10 minutes out of a two tank 60-100 buck (not srre what the going rate is where he dives) dive day the original poster is bothered by isn't asking a whole lot. That better be awful cool diving off Molokai, then again if they're the only game in town and people are willing to pay it you kinda have to go with the rules of the region. I think I'd probably find something else to do if I'm ever over there.

 

[Colliam7]

My instructor was asked to do a mask removal/replace & clear while on vacation in Jamaica. They asked everyone to do it in a pool. He tried to protest a bit to no avail. In he hops, drops down and slides the mask off. Next he turned away from the DM, donned the mask and turned around. The DM saw that he had put it on upside down, the strap cinched up real tight and was perfectly cleared. DM flipped him the bird and said OK.

Interesting behavior from two dive 'professionals'. Reminds me of the level of maturity of the behavior of my two younger teenage daughters. On Roatan a couple of years ago, a LDS trip group went through the obligatory mask flood, remove, replace at the beginning of the first dive. Everyone, INCLUDING the shop owner / trip organizer (who is also an instructor, and who had been to the resort multiple times and was known to the staff) as well as several instructor-level divers in the group, several DMs, several relatively inexperienced divers, went through the process. It took all of 20 minutes for the group to get the exercise out of the way, after which we had a great first dive. I suspect the shop owner proactively did it to set a positive example for the rest of us. To protest that I should not have to do something this simple, because I am a DM or an Instructor, is somewhat silly. If there are mitigating circumstances (contacts, sunscreen issues, etc) it is reasonable to seek a compromise. But, if I am asked to dive within certain limits (e.g. a maximum depth, or minimum end-of-dive air supply) as part of the business arrangement with a resort (I pay them money, they provide accomodations, services, diving opportunities), I will respect those limits, or ask politely for an exception. I may elect not to dive with them in the future if I feel they are too conservative. But, I won't get upset with staff (e.g. the DM) who are tasked as part of their employment with enforcing a policy set by the facility.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mask issues are also typically the ones that students have the most panic-inducing problems with. The next one on the list is reg recovery. If you have those two skills perfected, the only other one I'd bother "testing" is hovering.

Lots of divers do a pretty lousy job at descents and ascents and it's hard to go diving without having to do those. Divers have trouble with reg recovery because it's usually taught wrong...just as descents and ascents are. Of course that's the problem with mask skills too, they're just taught wrong. It only freaks divers out because they mnever really learned it in the first place.