Divemaster Responsibilities

[Thalassamania]

I was diving with an Inst and two Asst Inst once, and they knew - but I didn't know what the Inst was going to do. He dropped off the wall alone and down. The two Asst Inst stopped around 150 ft to watch, left me alone at 1.6 ppo (130?) as I was only one on Nitrox. I was just dumb struck, alone, watching above the two I could see. He dropped down to 265 or so, then after a while back.

I was pissed.

I am not responsible for any of those three.

If not, then perhaps you should not be diving with them, it doesn't sound like you had a buddy or a plan ... I never dive without both, but that's just me. That sounds like four guys who just happen to be in the water at the same time, headed vaguely in the same direction. I do not dive that way. When the Instructor started dropping below our agreed max depth I'd have had him on the way to the surface rather quickly.

 

[wsacdiver]

I am responsible for myself.
I am responsible for my buddy.
I am responsible for my students.
I am responsible for my divers when I DM.
I am responsible for all divers under the auspices of my institution when I am DSO
I am responsible for divers who are in trouble if I come across them.

Without hesitation, without personal consideration, without compromise.

I don't necessarily agree but if you are instructing students, yes. It is the right thing to help someone if they are in trouble, but not if it has a great potential to cause two fatalities. There is the responsibility of being a buddy and to look out for them, but I do not think you are responsible for them; everyone should be responsible for themselves and able to deal with problems that may arise. I think there is a big difference between boats that have a divemaster on board vs. boats that offer and advertise a guided dive. The caribbean dive boats and divemasters are extremely different to the mid-atlantic boats that I am accustomed to, but they also cater to completely different types of divers.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Wow how many times can this horse be beaten? I am personally on side with BOTH the diver and the DM sharing the responsiblity for the diver's safety. It drives me nuts to hear people say that the DM holds zero responsibility when in the water, but to say that the diver has the right to rely wholly on the DM to keep them safe because they are uncomfortable diving or too new is simply stupid as well.

Each of us, as divers has been trained to our specific skills to know how to handle at least the most common mistakes and errors. We are trained to stay close to our buddy so that they may help us should we get into trouble. Part of our responsibility as divers (freshly minted or otherwise) is to use our "big people" words to make it clear UP FRONT before the dive what our honest training levels and comfort levels are. If we do not tell someone that, then we cannot bitch when the DM does something that makes us uncomfortable unless it is exceeding training (or stipulated and clearly identified levels which could be a big board where the dives are booked "EACH OF OUR OPEN WATER DIVES BOTTOMS OUT AT APPROXIMATELY 135 FEET""). Bottom line is, we need to make sure we have conveyed our limits and if a DM or Op then exceeds them then I believe they are negligent AND responsible.

When diving with a DM, it should be safe to assume that that DM is NOT going to do anything that will jeopardize any of the divers safety and for me that includes exceeding a diver's training. The dive plan should be mapped out BEFORE the boat leaves so that the DM (or Op) knows that the divers carry sufficient training for the sites they are planning. If not, either refund money for those which are not OR change the plan. If conditions play a factor, then the Op or DM should plan around the lowest level possible dive. I know MANY disagree with me here and that is OK but I am WHOLLY on board with the DM have responsibility for the safety of the divers.

The above only represents a couple of ideas which are typed simply to show that there ARE ways that I believe the Diver/DM relationship can work effectively. These ideas are not to be assumed ro be complete or taken as a comprehensive plan. If you diagree with me, that is your right but this is a topic which I am unlikely to change my opinion of so telling me how wrong I am or trying to convince me that YOU are right will be completely ineffective.

 

[Splash-X]

Nope, some LDS are not going to know where to send you. Mine is good for Lubbock, but doesn't.

Common sense goes a long way for planning a dive. If someone is new they should be asking questions until there are no questions left to know answers for.

How about we start with the basics and lead up? How much does it cost to go out on your dive boat? What does that price include? Are there extra fees? Is there a guided tour or do you get to explore on your own. How deep are the dives. What type of certification is needed to do the dive I'm intrested in.

Those questions in themself should pry any information that is needed to understand the trip you'll be going on. There are alot more questions that can be asked but you have to WANT to know the information.

If you have no desire to find out all this information for yourself it would be my advise to trust your LDS and only go on trips where all of that is planned for you. Heck, take a cruise on a major cruise line and dive with their partnered operators because they CATER to those people who need hand holding and coddling.

I find nothing wrong with needing someone to hold you hand if thats what makes you comfortable. Everyone deserves to get what they want out of diving. I wouldn't expect people with polar opposites on the same dive boat. And I wouldnt expect a total novice to start planning their own dive trip.

I would argue that agencies like PADI ought to have higher standards for DMs and operators who use their agency certification as part of their advertising.

That is part of my point. If you can't trust your LDS to help you advance your knowledge of diving by assisting you plan for trips then that dive store is failing you. If they are failing you then they are also failing their staff (DM, instructors and the agency). I'm not saying they should plan your trip outright but they can easily suggest some questions to ask based on their evaluation of you as a diver.



"You" in no way referes to anyone in paticular, it is meant to say "you the diver" or "I the diver". I'm not singling anyone out, it is just a general statment.

 

[pilot fish]

The solution to DM versus Guide designation is simply- change the name from Dive Master to Dive Guide. By calling the person a Dive Master, newer divers have a REASONABLE EXPECTATION that their function goes far beyond just guiding divers on a site. Changing the name to GUIDE would clear up any confusion in that regard. Of course the reason they keep the name, Dive Master, is because Dive Ops want to give people that come to the resort to dive a measure of SECURITY. That is purposely misleading. By putting a person CALLED, and TRAINED, as a Dive Master in the water with divers, the Dive Op assumes responsibilty that EXCEEDS that of just being a Dive Guide. Dive Ops don't want to do that because they know that some NEW divers will not dive with a person that is just a guide, which means the Dive Ops will not fill up boats. Simple, real simply, change the name.

Another thought, have a sign in sheet at the dive shop, that all divers must sign, that highlights the role of THEIR ONBOARD DIVE MASTER . You have to sign a liability waiver when you sign up that indicates your assumed risk, so just have the function of DM described. If they don't want to do that, then have a prominent sign on the boat that describes DM's function. hmmmmmm, why do you think they don't do that?

There can be no doubt that a DM's responsibilities extend beyond those of a mere water-taxi driver. These responsibilities include briefings regarding local conditions, rules & regs, limitations etc... Additionally in the event of an emergency, the DM should have the wherewithal to arrange rescue and emergency services and provide EFR.

However, your statement should also hold true regarding the divers' certifications; there must be some expectation that a certified diver makes sure he/she has a buddy, does buddy checks, adheres to their own comfort and certification limitations, does not run out of air etc... this must be expected/assumed for all certified divers. Who says the guy with 25 or 30 dives is not less competent than the guy with 8 dives? Should the DM watch them too?

To be clear, I agree that it sounds as though this DM may have been negligent in not apparently taking this matter more seriously when the diver went missing, but when a couple are on a boat together and they appear to be hooking up with an experienced diver, it may not have been obvious that the victim was actually supposed to be with the DM? or, Perhaps there were words exchanged on the boat that were interpreted as "I'll go down to 100' then pop up and join my fiancé an our new friend". What exactly were the signals that were used when the query was raised about the buddy?

Another thing that bothers me is this (and remember that I do not know the site); if the victim managed to get to 100m+, and the rest of the group were about 70m above that depth, where would one start looking for the victim? Even if the dive was thumbed at that time, and the victim popped-up 2 minutes later, what could be done for someone that had just done a non-stop ascent (@ a rate of 150'+/min) from 105m without air?

Sadly, the complete truth of this incident, including all these key bits of information might never be known.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[Web Monkey]

If you have no desire to find out all this information for yourself it would be my advise to trust your LDS and only go on trips where all of that is planned for you. Heck, take a cruise on a major cruise line and dive with their partnered operators because they CATER to those people who need hand holding and coddling.

Except for Hugh Parkey in Belize, cruise ship dives have been some of the least safe dives I've ever witnessed, especially for new divers.

Also, there's a difference between "hand-holding" and exercising professional judgement. The victim didn't require hand-holding. He required the dive op and DM to select an appropriate dive site. Anybody with 2 dives needs to be on a dive site with a hard bottom in the 60' range, not on a wall.

The isn't hand-holding, coddling or rocket science and your nasty reply was uncalled for.

Terry

 

[DandyDon]

Don, what where YOU doing at 130 ft on NITROX? What was your %? If you planned on going THAT deep, why use nitrox? What was the benefit of nitrox at that depth?

It was years ago, but as I recall it was a LDS group trip, diving a Belize reef. The Inst had a plan; he just didn't tell me. I certainly didn't plan on dropping to 1.6 ppo but doing so briefly in following the others while under no physical stress didn't concern me. What did was when they all dropped below my reach without warning. Wasn't anything I could do but watch from my perch in the column and hope they came back to my range. It certainly wasn't like I could jerk "him on the way to the surface rather quickly." I floated back-up for the lady AIs as we waited in hopes he'd come back, ready to assist as I might - but when he came back, he then lead along the top of the wall.

Discussing a dive plan in more detail is a great idea. Asking dive buddies if they're going to go suicidal never has been part of my discussion. Anyone here ever ask dive buddies or members of the group if they plan to go suicidal - like the lost diver, subject of this thread did?

You hear/read about divers saving others from dumbass mistakes at times, and we cheer - but at the surprising moment of the incident, you do your best with the judgment call. Sometimes you just hope the dumbass comes back...

Like I did with my Inst;

Like the original poster did while escorting the GF;

Like the Dive Guide did.​

No one can be responsible for dumbasses. You try to help keep things reasonable, but when they vanish into the abyss - I don't think two divers in the abyss is an improvement.

But as PF asked, what was the %....that will determine your MOD (along with a hopefully conservative 1.4 or even better 1.6) so I think you are saying possible the same thing. If DD was diving 40% at 130', I think we will all agree that it was not a good choice but he is a smart guy so I am sure he was not

Oh, missed that. I don't remember what my actual O% or stop depth was. I stopped at 1.6 ppo under no physical stress.

 

[John_B]

All well and good, but the general purpose of this board is to think about what could have caused the accident and then figure out what could be done to prevent having this happen to someone else. There's more to doing so than just assigning blame.

OK, I'll bite...

Lessons that new divers could learn from this incident:

• You don't want to be doing wall dives as a new diver with crap for buoyancy skills. If you can't hover in a neutral position in the water with your arms crossed and your ankles crossed (IOW without skulling with your hands or finning with your feet) then you don't have anything even resembling solid buoyancy skills. Until that day, stick to hard bottoms.
• Don't try to set "personal best" type depth records (i.e. even to 100') at least until you know how narc'ed you get in the conditions you will be diving in, and until you know how fast you will burn through the gas in that AL80 on your back. Hint: That's what you are supposed to learn in the deep dive portion of your AOW class.

 

[vondo]

You ask questions: "Tell me what to expect on the dives? Can we discuss my qualifications? Should I hire a private DM?"

I've done all that. I've screwed up royally at times, but I have done it right at times.

I've read all of this train wreck, but I wanted to comment on this. Please don't take it as a response to you per se.

Don, now you know to ask questions and which questions to ask, make a plan and stick to it (re: your PPO2 1.6 story), and probably a thousand other things you didn't know as a beginning diver. I now know and am learning the same things.

I'm sure that all of this was covered "to standards" in the certification course I took, but it didn't really sink in to the extent it should have. It sounds like you could say the same. I know I was confused about the role of the DM when I started diving and I remember being surprised on my first US trip when no DM got in the water with us.*

What's the answer? Longer training? Emphasis in training about what to expect and covering some accident scenarios would help. But during OW there is so much information being thrown at you, deciding which is most important is hard. Clearly a mentor is a great idea, but does that work for vacation divers (which I sort of am)? Training has an emphasis on performing "skills" but "judgment" is not one of the "skills."

I guess pilot_fish said this way more succinctly that I have:

Splash, that all true but, as you know, the newbie does not KNOW THE RIGHT QUESTIONS to ask.

and my feeling is that it's a little unrealistic to be too hard on the beginning diver for not realizing that he was following a dangerous plan. Even if, as I do, you feel the majority of the responsibility was his.

* DM guided dives vary: I've not had DMs in the U.S. and Bahamas liveaboard only. I have had them in Tonga, Belize, Thailand, Cozumel.

 

[cerich]

Some agencies no longer officially stipulate a maximum depth for OW (and AOW I believe). I have been caught by this as well because I personally believe in it, but have been corrected by many here.

what agencies please?