Divemaster Responsibilities

[ScubaSteve]

what agencies please?

As I recall, PADI was the example because that was what I was OW trained (at which point I was told I had hard limits to follow). As I stated above, this goes back to what I have been told and unable to disprove so if you can find a current PADI document (not a PADI certifying shop) that states clearly an OW diver is only certified to a maximum of 60' then I will be happy because I personally believe there should be limits.


EDIT

So far I have been unable to locate on the NAUI or PADI websites any place that state clearly that an OW (AOW was an error on my part in my previous post) is restricted to a maximum depth. I welcome correction though.

 

[vondo]

As I recall, PADI was the example because that was what I was OW trained (at which point I was told I had hard limits to follow). As I stated above, this goes back to what I have been told and unable to disprove so if you can find a current PADI document (not a PADI certifying shop) that states clearly an OW diver is only certified to a maximum of 60' then I will be happy because I personally believe there should be limits.


EDIT

So far I have been unable to locate on the NAUI or PADI websites any place that state clearly that an OW (AOW was an error on my part in my previous post) is restricted to a maximum depth. I welcome correction though.

In one of the 10,000 previous times this came up, I did a bit of research on this. You can find it here:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/2459736-post51.html

 

[pilot fish]

yes, but the new diver, brand new diver, as victim was, is looking for GUIDANCE in the very beginning. They might not know what dept is recommended for thier cert level, or might even think, hey, let me try that. It is up to the Dive Op, when the person checks in, to make note of thier dive status and the DM to tell him, NO, that depth is not right for you. If you have experience then you know all this. New divers, as I said, don't even know how to ask the right questions.

I agree, but it is also the divers responsibility to step up and say "I can't do that yet".
There is a reason why 60ft is max for new divers.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thanks Vono.

We have a different approach in the science community, after completing a course of a minimum of 100 hrs and 12 dives:

5.40 Depth Certifications

Depth Certifications and Progression to Next Depth Level

A certified diver diving under the auspices of the organizational member may progress to the next depth level after successfully completing the required dives for the next level. Under these circumstances the diver may exceed their depth limit. Dives shall be planned and executed under close supervision of a diver certified to this depth, with the knowledge and permission of the DSO.

a) Certification to 30 Foot Depth - Initial permit level, approved upon the successful completion of training listed in Section 4.00 and 5.30.

b) Certification to 60 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 30 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 60 feet after successfully completing, under supervision, 12 logged training dives to depths between 31 and 60 feet, for a minimum total time of 4 hours.

c) Certification to 100 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 60 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 100 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 61 and 100 feet. The diver shall also demonstrate proficiency in the use of the appropriate Dive Tables.

d) Certification to 130 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 100 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 130 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 100 and 130 feet. The diver shall also demonstrate proficiency in the use of the appropriate Dive Tables.

e) Certification to 150 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 130 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 150 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 130 and 150 feet. The diver must also demonstrate knowledge of the special problems of deep diving, and of special safety requirements.

f) Certification to 190 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 150 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 190 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 150 and 190 feet. The diver must also demonstrate knowledge of the special problems of deep diving, and of special safety requirements.

Diving on air is not permitted beyond a depth of 190 feet.

 

[vondo]

Thanks Vono.

We have a different approach in the science community, after completing a course of a minimum of 100 hrs and 12 dives:

5.40 Depth Certifications

Depth Certifications and Progression to Next Depth Level

A certified diver diving under the auspices of the organizational member may progress to the next depth level after successfully completing the required dives for the next level. Under these circumstances the diver may exceed their depth limit. Dives shall be planned and executed under close supervision of a diver certified to this depth, with the knowledge and permission of the DSO.

a) Certification to 30 Foot Depth - Initial permit level, approved upon the successful completion of training listed in Section 4.00 and 5.30.

b) Certification to 60 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 30 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 60 feet after successfully completing, under supervision, 12 logged training dives to depths between 31 and 60 feet, for a minimum total time of 4 hours.

c) Certification to 100 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 60 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 100 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 61 and 100 feet. The diver shall also demonstrate proficiency in the use of the appropriate Dive Tables.

d) Certification to 130 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 100 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 130 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 100 and 130 feet. The diver shall also demonstrate proficiency in the use of the appropriate Dive Tables.

e) Certification to 150 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 130 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 150 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 130 and 150 feet. The diver must also demonstrate knowledge of the special problems of deep diving, and of special safety requirements.

f) Certification to 190 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 150 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 190 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 150 and 190 feet. The diver must also demonstrate knowledge of the special problems of deep diving, and of special safety requirements.

Diving on air is not permitted beyond a depth of 190 feet.

Interesting. I assume some of this extra caution is because you are performing some task as well and the goal is to keep task loading low to keep the diving safer and the task being performed well. Is that a reasonable assumption?

 

[jimdiverman]

Thanks Vono.

We have a different approach in the science community, after completing a course of a minimum of 100 hrs and 12 dives:

5.40 Depth Certifications

Depth Certifications and Progression to Next Depth Level

A certified diver diving under the ...(removed by jimdiverman)

f) Certification to 190 Foot Depth - A diver holding a 150 foot certificate may be certified to a depth of 190 feet after successfully completing, 4 dives to depths between 150 and 190 feet. The diver must also demonstrate knowledge of the special problems of deep diving, and of special safety requirements.

Diving on air is not permitted beyond a depth of 190 feet.

This reminds me of the PSAI narcosis management course outline. I believe it goes to 240 feet on air in stages of depth progression.

 

[Thalassamania]

Interesting. I assume some of this extra caution is because you are performing some task as well and the goal is to keep task loading low to keep the diving safer and the task being performed well. Is that a reasonable assumption?

No. In fact the task loading for qualification dives is kept to a minimum, we do not see this as "extra caution" but rather as SOP. Keep in mind that a 30 foot qual is extended to a diver who completes a training program that exceeds O/W, AOW, rescue, CPR, 1st aid, O2, and several specialty courses, the knowledge test is at a slightly higher level than the NAUI Instructor exam and watermanship evalution includes:

a) Swim underwater without swim aids for a distance of 25 yards without surfacing.
b) Swim 400 yards in less than 12 minutes without swim aids.
c) Tread water for 10 minutes, or 2 minutes without the use of hands, without swim aids.
d) Without the use of swim aids, transport another person of equal size a distance of 25 yards in the water.

Perhaps that's why the scientific community has such a better safety record, amonst other things we take depth very seriously. If I needed to make a dive to 150 (even just to maintain my quals) I needed dive-by-dive approval of the Diving Control Board.

I know that it happens all the time, but taking a diver to 100 feet who has 18 hours of training and a handful of dives I find to be highly questionable. I consider it irresponsible.

 

[vondo]

No. In fact the task loading for qualification dives is kept to a minimum, we do not see this as "extra caution" but rather as SOP. Keep in mind that a 30 foot qual is extended to a diver who completes a training program that exceeds O/W, AOW, rescue, CPR, 1st aid, O2, and several specialty courses, the knowledge test is at a slightly higher level than the NAUI Instructor exam and watermanship evalution includes:

What I actually meant was that a 60' qualification certifies you to do a task at 60', not that the training dives included tasks. Or am I still wrong?

 

[Web Monkey]

Thanks Vono.

We have a different approach in the science community, after completing a course of a minimum of 100 hrs and 12 dives:

5.40 Depth Certifications

Depth Certifications and Progression to Next Depth Level
. . .

I'm willing to bet that you don't have a lot of divers drifting off down the wall and getting killed.

The best thing that could come out of this tragic event is a cert agency policy that penalizes professionals that wilfully violate training standards with brand new divers, regardless of whether or not it's a "training" dive.

It makes absolutely no sense that on Sunday, an instructor could be fired for taking a student to 120' for his final certification dive, but on Monday all the depth and condition limits go right out the window because it's not a "training dive".

Terry

 

[Thalassamania]

What I actually meant was that a 60' qualification certifies you to do a task at 60', not that the training dives included tasks. Or am I still wrong?

Each qual is to that that depth, so yes a 60 foot qual permits tasks to 60 when accompanied by a buddy with a 60 foot qual or deeper.

I'm willing to bet that you don't have a lot of divers drifting off down the wall and getting killed.

That's NEVER happened.

The best thing that could come out of this tragic event is a cert agency policy that penalizes professionals that wilfully violate training standards with brand new divers, regardless of whether or not it's a "training" dive.

It makes absolutely no sense that on Sunday, an instructor could be fired for taking a student to 120' for his final certification dive, but on Monday all the depth and condition limits go right out the window because it's not a "training dive".

Terry

Thats one of the points that needs making, this Ayn Randian, "well he was a certified diver." I find to be so much crap. Certified by whom and to do what? Does it no logically follow that if you certify something that "just ain't so!" you or the promulator of the standards that you certifiy to, should shoulder some of the responsibility? If I certify that a bridge will stand and it does not ...