Divemaster Responsibilities

[redacted]

But the fact still remains, once you have a C-card, you can get air. And once you can get air, you can go as deep and long as you want if nobody else stops you. The diver is the primary regulator of his/her diving limits.

 

[Web Monkey]

But the fact still remains, once you have a C-card, you can get air. And once you can get air, you can go as deep and long as you want if nobody else stops you. The diver is the primary regulator of his/her diving limits.

There's a huge difference between almost 1000 dives and "can get air", and "certified yesterday". On our boat, "certified yesterday" gets to go off and watch fish in sunlight and seaweed in 30' of water (which is my second favorite dive, BTW), they don't get to do the 130' wall dive.

I have to tell you, that I did the exact same thing the deceased did (my # 7 dive was in Cozumel on a wall dive), and the only reason I'm not dead is that I had a very long class with an instructor that didn't want to ruin his 50 year streak of "no injuries or fatalities".

If there's a consumer demand for a "vacation diver" certification, that's fine with me, but it needs to be something where the DM is actually responsible for the diver, and training standards and ratios still apply.

Terry

 

[Doubler]

The water skills portion sounds just like YMCA standards from the 60's/70's.

 

[cerich]

As I recall, PADI was the example because that was what I was OW trained (at which point I was told I had hard limits to follow). As I stated above, this goes back to what I have been told and unable to disprove so if you can find a current PADI document (not a PADI certifying shop) that states clearly an OW diver is only certified to a maximum of 60' then I will be happy because I personally believe there should be limits.


EDIT

So far I have been unable to locate on the NAUI or PADI websites any place that state clearly that an OW (AOW was an error on my part in my previous post) is restricted to a maximum depth. I welcome correction though.

devils in the details, you'll find statements to the effect of "certified to dive in similar conditions in regards to depth, visability, temp, currents etc as those in which trained" That means 60 ft max. is HIGHLY recommended.

 

[meierdierck]

If there's a consumer demand for a "vacation diver" certification, that's fine with me, but it needs to be something where the DM is actually responsible for the diver, and training standards and ratios still apply.

Terry[/QUOTE]


We have that cert, PADI Scuba Diver, (i dont know what ssi or naui have) and it allows the individual to get air, rent equipment, and dive, under a supervised, controlled conditions up to 40'. The original poster clearly stated that the individual was Open Water Certified. Which implies the person has a basic level of skill and knowledge. What that person decides to do with that knowledge and skill is their decision, and his girlfriend decided not to descend below 60'( infact she was with the original poster I believe), so again he had the OPTION to not violate his training standards. Why is this the DM's fault, when his friend, girlfriend, and common sense couldnt stop the guy from going too deep, as sad as it is, he did this to himself, nobady dragged him down there, and if he was a Padi certified diver i promise you he correctly acknowledge his certification limits on at least 3 separate ocasions before he was certified, he heard it in his training video, not to mention what the instructor told him. How do you know he wasnt the guy in the class who wanted to see how deep he could go, who, ignored his instructor, his friend, and his girlfriend and did what he wanted, how do you know it would have saved his life to have had to get more and more certification, we already get bad PR for Put Another Dollar In, where do we draw the line, he jumped thru the hoops, passed the test, and signed his name, on the line stating he knew his limits, why does he now need a babysitter to walk him through, thats what the open water class is

 

[Riger]

.... We have a different approach in the science community, after completing a course of a minimum of 100 hrs and 12 dives ......

Thalassamania, in the context of diver training, who is "the science community"? Is this a specific group/institute that you are referring to?

Thanks in advance

Richard

 

[Jim Lapenta]

There are no hard and fast rules in PADI, NAUI or SEI that state a diver must not go below a certain depth except in the case of junior divers. The 60, 100, 130 foot limits are RECOMMENDATIONS. Professionals in the organization are supposed to obey those limits on training dives. Non training dives are a grey area. How many divers learned to go deep or dive at night just by doing it with a mentor or buddy? 1000's. In fact there was no specialty for anything years ago. You were a diver and supposed to know your limits. You gained knowledge by diving and systematically extending your dives, depth, and type of dives. If two buddies decide to go on a deep dive and they are OW certed no one is going to penalize them for it except Darwin maybe. Some DM's and instructors are so experienced( read cocky) that they feel they can take a newb to 100 feet and be ok. And most can IF they are one on one with the diver and not in charge of a group. But again the initial instructor who did the classroom and pool sessions has to be held accountable if they did not get it through to the student that these RECOMMENDATIONS are based on solid principles and if not followed could KILL THEM! I personally would not take a new diver with less than 10 dives post cert on a 100 foot dive. I do not accept AOW students fresh out of OW class. I will dive with them and give them help but they need to dive and get their buoyancy somewhat dialed in, become really familiar with the gear, and most important sit through 6-8 hours of classroom where I describe what is going to happen, what the rules are,and what can happen if they don't follow them. But that 's me. I'm again not answering to a shop, resort, or boat owner. If I were and they asked or told me to alter my training standards by lessening them- I'd tell em to go get F"d. I will not risk students lives with what I consider to be insufficient training. In the end it's my ass on the line and I plan on keeping it intact.

 

[Riger]

Before this becomes a bun fight....

This incident aside;

It is not and will never be reasonable to expect a constant standard from DM's within the industry. In the perfect world, this might be the case, in this world I am afraid not.

If we condition ourselves to expect a definable standard (or even minimum standard), then we are setting ourselves up for disappointment at best and disaster at worst. If however we condition ourselves to expect the least from a DM (and our trainers do this too) then we have no choice but to think for ourselves and make our choices based on (better) judgements and hopefully deeper thought. Any better service we get from a professional DM can then be considered as a bonus and (that operator) will probably warrant consideration in the future again.

Defining standards for DM's (and thus creating expectations) means nothing unless the agency that the DM represents actually audits and imposes those standards through active means in the field and ensures that they are being met.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[meierdierck]

This incident aside;

It is not and will never be reasonable to expect a constant standard from DM's within the industry. In the perfect world, this might be the case, in this world I am afraid not.

If we condition ourselves to expect a definable standard (or even minimum standard), then we are setting ourselves up for disappointment at best and disaster at worst. If however we condition ourselves to expect the least from a DM (and our trainers do this too) then we have no choice but to think for ourselves and make our choices based on (better) judgements and hopefully deeper thought. Any better service we get from a professional DM can then be considered as a bonus and (that operator) will probably warrant consideration in the future again.

Defining standards for DM's (and thus creating expectations) means nothing unless the agency that the DM represents actually audits and imposes those standards through active means in the field and ensures that they are being met.

Best Regards
Richard[/QUOTE]

well said,
if i show you a card that says i have achieved a basic standard, ie, open water, why would you treat me like i am a scuba diver/ resort course certified, or anything less, that would be insulting, those basic standards should be expected/ respected by the dive master as well,

unfortunately we are not allowed to take away a divers c-card, because I have seen way too many instances where this would really save lives, all we can do if teach to the standards set by our respective agencies, anything else is liablous, and hope that our contemporaies uphold the same. we cannot police every jackass running around with a c-card, and in Cayman, these guys run through ten thousand people a day, how on earth could this DM do 10 check out dive with everyone, and if he didnt take the boat to the "PRIMO" sites, you know there would be a mutiny onboard, not to mention guys like monkey would be on another page complaining they dont go to any good sites

until monkey creates and runs our perfect world for us, we have got to deal with this one, that is all we can do

nobody on here knows jack about this incident, only the original poster, and monkey, know the whole story, and throwing the DM in front of the bus based on what is posted here is wrong

"Leaving the group" could easily be "narced out of his mind and drifting off into the abyss", which is something that would have been impossible on a shallower dive over a hard bottom." she said he made the choice, please read the entire post before you know it all

 

[Riger]

Meierdierck, perhaps you misunderstood the context of my post;

I specifically excluded this incident from my statement in order to enable a general statement.

The thrust of my post was intended to address the issue of "How we can prevent these things at a personal level"

If you have read the entire thread, then you will know that I (and others) do consider (based on available information) a portion of the blame probably rests with the DM. However it has also been clearly stated that there were many other issues that appear to have played a role in this tragedy.

Best Regards
Richard