Divemaster Responsibilities

[CDNScubaMoose]

I can assure you that the training is complete and the PADI OW book stresses this also. If you want to beat something into a student, beat this drum. An OW C card allows you to start the process of learning to dive. I know we want to be positive but I think a student needs to fully understand the learning curve and that certification doesn't make him/her a good diver and for that matter PADI needs to change the name of Advanced open water. For crying out loud a diver walks away from that thinking he/she is an advanced diver. The more I learn the more I find out how much I don't know.

I agree with the statement that a student has to understand that this an OW course is the beginning of their dive education. That said they also have to understand their responsibilities and have correct expectations. My question revolves around what is the best approach to impress this to students.

Currently I use an example from a couple of years ago when I had organized a charter - I was diving doubles with a computer and nitrox (36%). My buddy was also on doubles and the same mix. The rest of the group were AOW at a minimum but were on air and single 80's - some had computers some did not. 2 dives to 70' ish on a wreck. I was a certified DM but was not acting in a DM role, the boat captain gave the breifing. 1st dive went off no problem - about 30 mins dive, we had a 1 hour surface interval. At which point I checked my computer and went in for my second dive. As soon as I hit the water the rest of the group assumed that they had enough surface interval too and jumped in as well (I didn't realize this until I was at depth and started to see other buddy teams). After another 30 min dive we were back on the boat and headed back to shore. It was at this point that some of the other divers started to attempt to log their dives using the RDP. Guess what - it didn't work so well for them. I now use this profile when talking about dive tables and have the students attempt to calculate it. If they are successful at coming up with an ending pressure group - it tells me that we have to spend more time on tables, if they realize it can't be done then I go into a long chat about personal responsibility. Is there anyone with other suggestions on what else I can do to beat home the point? I plan on using JimLap's post at the end of the class and have them all read it - but any other suggestions would be welcome.

Think about this for a minute. The average new diver has too many other things going on in his head than to check out the safety procedures on a boat. It takes some time to recognize quality vs this crap organization. I don't have to know what happened after the boat left the dock, if it left with a Captain/Dm/Instructor/spotter, they are crap. This was an accident waiting to happen.
Hell, even if this DM was able to rescue this diver he had no assistance from the boat.
A man put his trust in this dive shop and Captain/Dm/Instructor/spotter and it cost him his life.

If you have too much running through your head then maybe you shouldn't be there. I do some technical diving - I don't do a 150' dive for 30 mins without spending a pile of time working on my skills and practicing so that way I don't have too many things going through my head. My point being - I don't trust anyone but myself and buddy's/team mates that I have trained with ... a tropical DM makes for a great guide but in my opinion - that is about all.

 

[fosterboxermom]

I have a question for everyone that thinks you are completly responsible for yourself and the DM is not. Most agencies NAUI, PADI Certify children for OW(and I am not sure if they can only go to a certain depth or if they are certified to 60 ft as well) at 10 years old now. Is it in agreement that most of you feel that a 10 year old should also be fully responsible for him/herself? Or does this only pertain to 18 and over?

 

[JDMerk]

I was under the impression that naui/padi and the like cut off the jr certifications at 12 or 13...not that it matters much in your example. But what does matter is that no reputable dive op is going to take someone under 18 on a charter unless accompanied by an adult or legal guardian. They have to have someone sign the legal disclaimer. Now if a DM or other diver certified or not took a minor out diving from their own personal boat without their parents consent and the kid got hurt, they are absolutely liable.

Anyway...So yes, personally I do agree that it is inherently the individual diver's responsibility for their own safety. If the diver is unable to make informed decisions on their own (as is the case for a child) it is the responsibility of the parent or legal guardian to insure their safety. Thats why they put the "I know and understand that diving is an inherently dangerous activity" clause in the disclaimer.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

PADI allows a full cert at 15 as do most agencies. 10 and 11 yr olds must be with a DM, AI or Instructor in training. However if a parent elects to take their kid diving no one is going to stop them. 12, 13, 14 yr olds must be with a DM, AI, Instructor OR a Parent or Guardian. 15 & 16 yr olds should have a DM or other certified diver with them. You must understand that these are recommendations and NOT LAWS! Anyone can do whatever the hell they want really. The 16 yr old was perfectly within his cert to be on that dive without a legal guardian. I'd bet that he had mom and dad's permission on the waiver you all signed though.

PADI allows jr OW at 10. The 13 for on line means no more than it does on myspace. Seems 13 is ok for anything online.

I cannot accept students under 12 and even then the kid would have to be damn mature for me to take him on and there are those out there. There are a few 13,14 yr olds I'd trust more than half of the vacation divers I've seen. And as to my statement regarding the initial instruction I still stand by that. There is no reason to not instill in people that you can die if you don't take this thing seriously. I use accidents from here and the DAN stats in graphic detail to impress this on my students. If I ever heard of one of my students going on a dive like this I'd ream their ass out good when they got back! Is this bad for business? Not nearly as bad as having to say

"yeah I train lots of divers- the last one died- but don't hold that against me."

If a student or new diver cannot or will not say not to a dive plan like this then their training sucked or they were not paying attention in which case AGAIN- the instructor should have seen or picked up on that. And we are talking about adults not kids. And though I just stated the 16 yr old was within PADI standards to dive I don't think much of his parents for letting him do a dive like this when he had not dove in a year. I'd have found out the dive plan, the site, and made sure he was with a responsible buddy befroe I let him on that boat. Or perhaps I was under the inpression that since he had not dove in a year the Dm would be doing a refresher type thing. But even then I'd still have known the plan and my son would have known to say hell no to this. And had HE been trained properly he would have known this was dumb. I'd rather put the fear of god into a kid when it comes to depth limits and dive plans than attend his/her funeral and tell the parents why he didn't know any better.

 

[oly5050user]

I have a question for everyone that thinks you are completly responsible for yourself and the DM is not. Most agencies NAUI, PADI Certify children for OW(and I am not sure if they can only go to a certain depth or if they are certified to 60 ft as well) at 10 years old now. Is it in agreement that most of you feel that a 10 year old should also be fully responsible for him/herself? Or does this only pertain to 18 and over?

PADI has a depth limit of 40' for jr divers..and must be accompained by a PADI professional or adult parent/guardian..
Being that there are very clear limits placed on jr certifications a jr ow certification cannot be compared to an adults ow certification.Same objectives are met for jr certification,but PADI recognizes that youth has limitations on good judgement and thereby places additional limits.Adults are supposed to exercise good judgement and be responsible for themselves.
If a person wants a DM to be responsible for them and or their buddy,then hire one as a personal dive buddy and explain why ..I would charge $150. for the service and also expect to have any other expenses covered.

 

[fosterboxermom]

PADI has a depth limit of 40' for jr divers..and must be accompained by a PADI professional or adult parent/guardian..
Being that there are very clear limits placed on jr certifications a jr ow certification cannot be compared to an adults ow certification.Same objectives are met for jr certification,but PADI recognizes that youth has limitations on good judgement and thereby places additional limits.Adults are supposed to exercise good judgement and be responsible for themselves.
If a person wants a DM to be responsible for them and or their buddy,then hire one as a personal dive buddy and explain why ..I would charge $150. for the service and also expect to have any other expenses covered.

Thank you, now I know I don't have to tip DM's anymore since I don't hire a DM they are just guides.

 

[InTheDrink]

PADI has a depth limit of 40' for jr divers..and must be accompained by a PADI professional or adult parent/guardian..
Being that there are very clear limits placed on jr certifications a jr ow certification cannot be compared to an adults ow certification.Same objectives are met for jr certification,but PADI recognizes that youth has limitations on good judgement and thereby places additional limits.Adults are supposed to exercise good judgement and be responsible for themselves.
If a person wants a DM to be responsible for them and or their buddy,then hire one as a personal dive buddy and explain why ..I would charge $150. for the service and also expect to have any other expenses covered.

Yeah, PADI also has a very clear depth limit of 60ft for OW divers. Shame the PADI DM took the PADI OW to a 100ft dive outside of the PADI OW depth limits (60ft). But hey, can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, huh?

 

[gcbryan]

Like I said, certain attitudes have made me both sad and angry.

I've dived with a load of DMs and usually they've been brill, from brief to beer. Fun and safety have been encapsulated. The DM in question clearly royally ****ed up. But we all do and if this was a one off my heart really goes out to him. Poor soul.

Much - MUCH - more worrying is the prevalent view on this board that newbs are alone. Tough ****, **** off, work it out yourself.

Hence why my opinion of the profession has dropped dramatically.

Well, maybe you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason...maybe it's because you are a newer diver and have had some bad experience? Who knows.

In the case of the board though I think you are shooting the messenger so to speak. If it's raining outside and you don't want to get wet and someone says that you are responsible to carry an umbrella does that upset you? Or is it just a fact. If it's raining outside it's possible that you will run into people who will share their umbrella with you. Maybe every one of them will share but there may be no one outside with an umbrella and it's certainly more or less a fact that's it's a better policy to carry your own umbrella if you don't want to get wet.

You can get wet and cast aspersions on anyone who suggests that you should have your own umbrella but it doesn't change the fact.

I personally don't know of anyone who wouldn't help a newbie. Why do you think we are taking the time to make the point that you should be responsible. It's so you don't kill yourself. This guy was 58 years old....not a 10 year old. You don't have to like the message but there is no need to get upset with those who bother to bring you the message.

If some newer diver reads this message and decides to become more self sufficient that will save more lives than if I said all newer divers should expect everyone else to be able to protect them from themselves. How many lives will that potentially save?

 

[spoolin01]

Adults are supposed to exercise good judgement and be responsible for themselves.
If a person wants a DM to be responsible for them and or their buddy,then hire one as a personal dive buddy and explain why ..I would charge $150. for the service and also expect to have any other expenses covered.

Of course adults are, each one, but the common understanding of mutual responsibility, and the obligatory legal liability - in place now to some degree for centuries, if not millenia - goes beyond what you said. And just to keep swirling the drain, I believe he did pay for the DM...

 

[InTheDrink]

Well, maybe you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason...maybe it's because you are a newer diver and have had some bad experience? Who knows.

In the case of the board though I think you are shooting the messenger so to speak. If it's raining outside and you don't want to get wet and someone says that you are responsible to carry an umbrella does that upset you? Or is it just a fact. If it's raining outside it's possible that you will run into people who will share their umbrella with you. Maybe every one of them will share but there may be no one outside with an umbrella and it's certainly more or less a fact that's it's a better policy to carry your own umbrella if you don't want to get wet.

You can get wet and cast aspersions on anyone who suggests that you should have your own umbrella but it doesn't change the fact.

I personally don't know of anyone who wouldn't help a newbie. Why do you think we are taking the time to make the point that you should be responsible. It's so you don't kill yourself. This guy was 58 years old....not a 10 year old. You don't have to like the message but there is no need to get upset with those who bother to bring you the message.

If some newer diver reads this message and decides to become more self sufficient that will save more lives than if I said all newer divers should expect everyone else to be able to protect them from themselves. How many lives will that potentially save?

You're right. I do seem to have a chip on my shoulder about this and I've been wondering why. It's involved me emotionally where I have no business feeling emotional about. So I have been examining why I feel so strongly about this. And I'm not saying I've got the answers.

I guess I've just grown up through the vacation diver model although am no a diver nut, but I can see how easy, so easy, it is for new divers to get themselves into big trouble.

The agencies don't care so I thought the DMs at least would. At least to the most simple basics like not taking a newb to a dive clearly way outside his training. And of course most DMs do this. The DM in question appears not to have but ultimately it's just trying to address the fundamental problem further downstream. 4 day training isn't worth ****. I wish someone would sue PADI and to high heaven. I've wondered whether that would have a net positive or negative effect but given the insanely high drop out numbers from PADI's course it does sound like there may be a market for a quality training provider.

I'm just frustrated. The diver who died shouldn't have. Yeah he made mistakes. But newbs in any activity do. Newbs rely on pros to keep them within safe parameters and this DM did not fulfil this.

Like I say, I know I harping on and sound like a stuck record. There's just something in this thread that brings diving into disrepute in my mind.