Divemaster Responsibilities

[Web Monkey]

Dive Guide is, as far as I can tell, a term invented by GaryLee, ex post facto, to muddy the water and attempt to absolve the DM of responsibility. It's pretty transparent ploy.

Believe it or not, DG is a (brand new) certification level, although I'm still unable to find out if it's a professional cert or not.

Terry

 

[cerich]

Believe it or not, DG is a (brand new) certification level, although I'm still unable to find out if it's a professional cert or not.

Terry

sounds more like a liability dodge than a need.

 

[ScubaSteve]

sounds more like a liability dodge than a need.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Thank you for that last comment. bsee65

As far as awareness goes I'd like to let you all know I have posted a revised and corrected for punctuation, grammar, etc of my "Who is Responsible" article at the end of the original one. This is the version I will be handing out to all my students. It's in the new divers and those considering forum.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

After spending the last two days reading this entire thread I wanted to give my thoughts on what I learned from this thread and this incident.

1) As an instructor I have to do a better job at instilling to OW students they are ultimately responsible for their own actions. I already have a case study where I try to drive this point home but I am in the midst of strengthening the wording of the take home message.

2) When functioning as a DM, I have to make it clear to the divers that I am leading on a dive that they are responsible for themselves and their buddy - however I have to be willing to utilize my extra training and good judgement to ensure the divers remain safe. Even if I am not the DM in charge, I believe I have a moral responsibility to speak up if I have any doubts if this is not the case.

3) When I am conducting my DM course, I have to make sure that the candidates are thinking about the what ifs and examples like this one will make for excellent tools to have a discussion around and get them to look at multiple angles.

4) On a lighter side - I have way too much time on my hands.

Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread and shared their opinions. I may not agree with all of them but they were interesting to read and learn from.

 

[bsee65]

We're coming full circle:

• Does the facility bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.
• Does the DM bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.
• Does the new diver bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.
• Does the Colorado Instructor bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.
• Does the local Instructor bear some responsibility? Clearly yes.

The real question is how to partition it.

I totally disagree. I see no reason at all, unless you're planning legal action, to partition the responsibiilty. The goal is a safe dive experience. That means everyone should be doing it right, making the right decisions, doing their jobs, and using common sense. In short, and for the purposes of creating safe divers, everyone who bears even the slightest responsibility for the accident bears 100% responsibility. If any one of the above parties had done their job fully, then the accident probably doesn't happen.

If anything, the real question is how to get new divers to understand this. They need to be aware that everyone makes mistakes. They need to understand that there are no diving angels who will be able to follow them wherever they might go and haul them out should a problam arise. They need to understand that, no matter where the blame can be partitioned, that 100% of the cost of the accident falls on the victim.

-bob

 

[Web Monkey]

I just can't get my head around why a newly certified diver would be willing to go along with that kind of dive either.

Switching from "Do what the instructor says" to "I'm responsible for me" is an unbelievably huge leap for brand new divers and they don't generally make it immediately after certification. Some never make leap.

SCUBABoard is littered with stories where the DM took vacation divers on mob-dives with AL80s to areas that I would only do with my regular buddy and doubles. New divers generally don't know when to say "no" to a professional.

Usually the dive leader has to do something incredibly, bizarrely outside the diver's comfort zone before the diver will say "no".

Terry

 

[InTheDrink]

Very true Terry.

As was your previous point about 'dive leads need to', 'diver needs to'. Problem is 'new diver needs to' doesn't know what he 'needs to' particularly with current training curricula.

The question is whether there's anything that can be done about this or whether it's just a fact of life and doesn't kill 'that many' people after all. Really it's a question of whether anything can be done about it?

1. Agency
2. Operator
3. Dive leader
(I'm sure there are many more points of entry as per Thal's posts)

I don't believe there's much traction to be had at the agency level. To much profit in getting people certified easily.
At the Op level word of mouth should work
At dive lead equally - any sensible Op wouldn't keep a dangerous DM on their books.

Maybe it does work well in general. And we're talking about an exception. But that makes the various dive pro's positions put forward on this board seem all the more overly defensive.

The tricky part is that the main point of contact with diving at which a diver is vulnerable is between agency certification release and start of diving and there's no obvious contact points even in the internet age with these people.

Thoughts. anyone on how to catch a vacation diver early on?
Anyway, goodnight.

 

[InTheDrink]

I noticed a major omission after typing, which was 'diver' in the lines of responsibility and then realised I meant 'New Diver'.

Increasingly it seems obvious that the question is how do we get new divers to become experienced divers relatively safely. Like any parent to any child from any animal group. Some divers out there don't have any affinity for these new divers and I'm fine with that - I've no time for these experienced arrogant goons either.

As I see it right now:
Agency standards: so low as will not prepare or protect a new diver
Operator standards: variable, some happy to ignore recommendations of agencies
Dive lead standards: safety, if they feel like it (not a legal responsibility - diver is on his own)

Faced with such a motley crew, who'd blame anyone for thinking diving didn't know it's arse from its elbow?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I totally disagree. I see no reason at all, unless you're planning legal action, to partition the responsibiilty. The goal is a safe dive experience. That means everyone should be doing it right, making the right decisions, doing their jobs, and using common sense. In short, and for the purposes of creating safe divers, everyone who bears even the slightest responsibility for the accident bears 100% responsibility. If any one of the above parties had done their job fully, then the accident probably doesn't happen.

If anything, the real question is how to get new divers to understand this. They need to be aware that everyone makes mistakes. They need to understand that there are no diving angels who will be able to follow them wherever they might go and haul them out should a problam arise. They need to understand that, no matter where the blame can be partitioned, that 100% of the cost of the accident falls on the victim.

-bob

My solution to that is to start giving the handout I wrote and posted on this board under the new divers and those considering forum to every one of my students. And based on the PM's I've been receiving asking for permission to use it a number of others are doing it as well. Maybe not as a handout but as part of their club's or shop's website. Again anyone who wishes may use it. I only ask that you send me a link to your site so I can see it and you provide a link to mine and in return I'll provide a link to yours.

Jim Lapenta
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