Divemaster Responsibilities

[spoolin01]

I don't think having an extra person on the boat would help in this case (although it would certainly help in others).

What would really help is if training standards were enforced during both training and non-training "lead" dives. Anybody that needs to have someone take them out on a dive, needs to know that their certification limits won't be willfully violated. People qualified (and confident enough) to dive on their own can do what they want.

Terry

Agreed, a person on the boat wouldn't have been in on what was going on, from what I've understood.

My comment on laws about boating-for-scuba and the nexus with the traditional role of a boat captain were a follow-on to the mutely-received earlier observation that a boat captain has responsibility for his passengers. Exactly if and where that leaves off when scuba is involved is clearly ethically contentious in the minds of those here, and apparently legally so. The focus on names and job descriptions for those guys on the boat and in the water who tell you what to do - as if there were even a small likelihood that such definitions would be understood or acknowledged by more than a small percentage of divers, much less that such consensus has risen to where it would be dispositive legally - seems to be getting it backwards to me. Context, expertise, and actions (release forms too) seem likelier to define their legal responsibilities, not some wished-for circumscription of their job description. I haven't done all that many boat dives in different locales with dive op personnel in the water, but in most it was implicit in their conduct at least, as well as usually by direct instruction that they expected me to follow them, not solely for my benefit but also for theirs, logistically and ethically (my inference here - perhaps it was all logistical, they just didn't want me mucking up their schedule!). In some cases it's hard to avoid the impression that the dive profile and forced march are partly intended to allow NDL and/or gas volume to keep the dive to a curt and tidy duration, for instance. This clear dichotomy suggested here between needing or asking to be lead - with the frequent and condescending implication of pathetic dependence - and simply tagging along for sight-seeing doesn't jibe with reality in my experience so far.

As a corollary, the civil disobedience tact - the DM says follow me and you salute then go your merry way, like the Monty Python guards in the tower with the fey prince - and the confusion it must bring to all involved, seems very much out of the spirit of the plan/dive ethic. Maybe I misunderstood the covertness, and you don't just ditch the guy.

I do agree clarifying the roles at the moment of the dive plan is preferable to invoking an SOP that obviously doesn't exist.

 

[pilot fish]

A point, which most of us might agree on, I think: Dive Ops want to MAXIMIZE thier profits and MINIMIZE their LIABILITY. That is fine and good in any business model but not when it FATALLY impacts divers lives. If theer is any confusion about what a DG versus a DM's job is on a dive, that must be cleared up. Do we agree on that score?

 

[tridacna]

A point, which most of us might agree on, I think: Dive Ops want to MAXIMIZE thier profits and MINIMIZE their LIABILITY. That is fine and good in any business model but not when it FATALLY impacts divers lives. If theer is any confusion about what a DG versus a DM's job is on a dive, that must be cleared up. Do we agree on that score?

PF, What is your understanding of the role of each? Until I read this thread, I assumed that the DM (I've never heard of a dive guide before), was to plan the dive, lead the dive, check on divers throughout the dive, ensure that all return back on board safely - and then cut some fruit!

I have no idea what a DG is or what he/she is supoposed to do.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Guide? What is a Dive Guide? I have NEVER been on a boat or in a shop where the Dive MASTER was referred to as a Dive GUIDE. Does any agency out there offer a certification of "Dive GUIDE" where the only responsibility is to swim in front of everybody, not keep the group together, point out pretty fish and have absolutely zero responsibility to the safety and well being of the divers in the group?

 

[Web Monkey]

I can't imagine that any new or vacation diver would have a clue what the difference is between DM and DG (I didn't until just now when I looked it up on the 2009 SSI Training Standards). From what I can see, it's not actually easily searchable on Google yet.

In any case, it shouldn't have any bearing here unless the shop was doing something really bizarre. All the "DMs" I've ever met in the Caribbean were either instructors or instructor candidates.

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

I have no idea what a DG is or what he/she is supoposed to do.

I just read the 2009 SSI Training Standards and still can't figure out if DG is a recreational or professional certification, although about the only thing a DG can do is give tours.

Terry

 

[pilot fish]

PF, What is your understanding of the role of each? Until I read this thread, I assumed that the DM (I've never heard of a dive guide before), was to plan the dive, lead the dive, check on divers throughout the dive, ensure that all return back on board safely - and then cut some fruit!

I have no idea what a DG is or what he/she is supoposed to do.

Neither do I, nor, it seems, does anyone else.

 

[pilot fish]

I think you are finally understanding the questins I've been asking.

Guide? What is a Dive Guide? I have NEVER been on a boat or in a shop where the Dive MASTER was referred to as a Dive GUIDE. Does any agency out there offer a certification of "Dive GUIDE" where the only responsibility is to swim in front of everybody, not keep the group together, point out pretty fish and have absolutely zero responsibility to the safety and well being of the divers in the group?

 

[tridacna]

Neither do I, nor, it seems, does anyone else.

I was in Aruba last year. On the "advanced" dive boat, I noticed two other divers who could not put their gear together properly. (There were 4 divers on the boat). We helped them and learned that they had been minted the day before. The DM then called us together and gives a dive briefing that includes a drop to 128 feet. These guys had no idea what he was saying. (No English). My buddy and I asked him what he was doing. No worries , he says, I've done this with beginners many times before. My buddy and I shadowed these two on descent and they lasted about 2 mins at 132 feet (800lbs left) before they had to ascend. I indicated to the DM to take them up and my buddy and I finished the dive without them. I yelled at him after we dock about moronic practices. He tells me to speak to the owner who told me that without them, we could not have dived (too few spaces on boat so he moved them to accommodate us).

 

[Thalassamania]

Guide? What is a Dive Guide? I have NEVER been on a boat or in a shop where the Dive MASTER was referred to as a Dive GUIDE. Does any agency out there offer a certification of "Dive GUIDE" where the only responsibility is to swim in front of everybody, not keep the group together, point out pretty fish and have absolutely zero responsibility to the safety and well being of the divers in the group?

Dive Guide is, as far as I can tell, a term invented by GaryLee, ex post facto, to muddy the water and attempt to absolve the DM of responsibility. It's pretty transparent ploy.

Speaking of which, have we lost the dear boy? I answered his questions but he's failed to answer mine. I wonder why?