Divemaster Responsibilities

[Thalassamania]

Erm, Thal, Gary - I think there's potentially some interesting things to be learned from this thread.

Overt aggression will likely make sure that doesn't happen.

Thal - words aren't really important here, the concepts are what count I believe.

How does one express a concept except in words? What use are words when their definition is not agreed to?

Gary - you're up against it, please don't feel too put upon

In any meeting I have, I always try to define what the goal is.

What's the goal from this thread???

Truth!

 

[GaryLee]

I know for a fact IDC candidates who were docked points for spending too much time on dive theory and not pushing con-ed enough in their exams! What kind of bull shiite is that?

Hi JimLap.
You have a good command from my view on what is going on but I wanted to just correct a small point and that is as above.

You are not docked points for spending too much time on dive theory and not pushing con-ed enough in their exams. the exams are multiple choice and do not include Con Ed, I can quote all the exams if you'd like.
however, during your presentations you are expected to gain exra points by pushing Either con ed or dive equipment, either of which is shown to give a better chance of keeping the student within the industry and so aid both the instructor , the manufacturers and the agency.

sorry, a small point and with little worthiness, but never the less valid I think.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Completely see what you are saying.
I am now removing myself from the discussion as it has moved off topic and by defending my corner I am evidently opening up a can of worms.

I defend PADI as a dive organisation Wholeheartely, I know they will also back me with years of legal expertise and as the foremost dive agency in the World (yes I know []other agencies have been around longer,U I can even quote the dates...), but All agencies look to PADI for guidance. [/U]

For those divers out there, if you aren't completely happy with your training then say something.

Instructors, do as I do and let your studnets know they have a choice and if you haven't taught someone to the standard you are happy with, don't pass them. I Don't



Finally.

That is one of the biggest bull**** statements of all time where I highlighted! Some agencies are trying to get as far away from PADI practices as possible!!! My agency's standards forbid such PADI sanctioned practices as weekend courses, going as far as telling someone who insists on this type of course to go somewhere else! I myself do not want to train "underwater tourists" . I train divers. My students know from the outset that they are responsible for their diving- not a DM or guide. They also know that this sport can KILL you very quickly and in very nasty ways from the first class session. I want them to understand that this is fun but it is serious. I wonder what a PADI IDC would say to my welcome to new students.

" Welcome to the world of scuba training! This sport is fun, exciting, educational, relaxing, and if you stay within the limits of this training and your experience it is SAFE! Go out side of that though too far too fast and it has the potential to hurt or kill you in a heartbeat! Now let's get started!"

This is how I start every class. Think I'd get good grades in a PADI IE?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

When I say exam I mean the whole thing. An exam to me is everything that you are graded on.

 

[GaryLee]

I know for a fact IDC candidates who were docked points for spending too much time on dive theory and not pushing con-ed enough in their exams! What kind of bull shiite is that?

JimLap, you seem like a level headed and sensible person.
This statement is completely untrue and the Instructor Examiners will be horrified to see it as will PADI International Ltd.

During the Knowledge presentation portions of the two day Exam for PADI Instructor candidates there is a presentation where the candidate can gain a point by mentioning (read as selling) con-ed or a piece of dive equipment. One will benifit the industry and manufacturers and the othe the industry and PADI. THere is no differentiation on either and they are not docked points.

sorry to correct an otherwise very good thread,

Gary

 

[GaryLee]

That is one of the biggest bull**** statements of all time where I highlighted! Some agencies are trying to get as far away from PADI practices as possible!!! My agency's standards forbid such PADI sanctioned practices as weekend courses, going as far as telling someone who insists on this type of course to go somewhere else! I myself do not want to train "underwater tourists" . I train divers. My students know from the outset that they are responsible for their diving- not a DM or guide. They also know that this sport can KILL you very quickly and in very nasty ways from the first class session. I want them to understand that this is fun but it is serious. I wonder what a PADI IDC would say to my welcome to new students.

" Welcome to the world of scuba training! This sport is fun, exciting, educational, relaxing, and if you stay within the limits of this training and your experience it is SAFE! Go out side of that though too far too fast and it has the potential to hurt or kill you in a heartbeat! Now let's get started!"

This is how I start every class. Think I'd get good grades in a PADI IE?

Jim where do you want to make the changes?
You can try to change the perception of the dive industry from an organisation with less than 1% of recognised certifications or get into PADI and make a difference changing an organisation that has over 78% of total Diver Certifications. PADI may not be right on everything and they will be the first to accept it so join forces and help make the dive industry even safer.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

PADI listens to no one especially independent instructors. I will not affiliate with a shop and will not push gear or courses that students don't need, want, or can't afford. Right now I am forbidden to put anything before the students best interests, needs, or means when it comes to advising on equipment.

Do you honestly think they would change their entire business model, forego profits, and go back to the way the program was orignally set up which was not much different than the old Y program? That is the only way I could teach for them. And they would have to get rid of the elearning, require a minimum of 32 hours of instruction, teach all the things that I do now, and charge independent instructors the same as they do the so-called 5 star, gold palm, platinum platypus, or whatever the same price for materials.

Like my agency does now. I pay the same price and make the same profits on materials buying enough for 4 students at a time as one that buys for 25 at a time. That is an agency that treats all it's instructors fairly. For me to switch they would have to allow me to teach to the standards I do now and require all instructors to do so or higher. They would have to stop encouraging ridiculous specialties. They would have to put all major standard's changes before the membership. They would have to stop telling people to take one course after another with no time to put into practice what was just learned. They would have to fully support independents and put us on equal footing with the biggest of their customers. In short when pigs fly I would crossover. I don't want to put lots of divers in the water. I want to put divers in the water who are FULLY qualified to be in the water from day one like I do now. There are divers in the water who have no business being near water let alone in it on scuba and PADI has been at the forefront of seeing to that. No thanks I would not fight them and they would soon censor or throw me out anyway because as long as there were things wrong I would be more vocal about it than I am now to even more people.

 

[GaryLee]

PADI listens to no one especially independent instructors. I will not affiliate with a shop and will not push gear or courses that students don't need, want, or can't afford. Right now I am forbidden to put anything before the students best interests, needs, or means when it comes to advising on equipment.

Do you honestly think they would change their entire business model, forego profits, and go back to the way the program was orignally set up which was not much different than the old Y program? That is the only way I could teach for them. And they would have to get rid of the elearning, require a minimum of 32 hours of instruction, teach all the things that I do now, and charge independent instructors the same as they do the so-called 5 star, gold palm, platinum platypus, or whatever the same price for materials.

Like my agency does now. I pay the same price and make the same profits on materials buying enough for 4 students at a time as one that buys for 25 at a time. That is an agency that treats all it's instructors fairly. For me to switch they would have to allow me to teach to the standards I do now and require all instructors to do so or higher. They would have to stop encouraging ridiculous specialties. They would have to put all major standard's changes before the membership. They would have to stop telling people to take one course after another with no time to put into practice what was just learned. They would have to fully support independents and put us on equal footing with the biggest of their customers. In short when pigs fly I would crossover. I don't want to put lots of divers in the water. I want to put divers in the water who are FULLY qualified to be in the water from day one like I do now. There are divers in the water who have no business being near water let alone in it on scuba and PADI has been at the forefront of seeing to that. No thanks I would not fight them and they would soon censor or throw me out anyway because as long as there were things wrong I would be more vocal about it than I am now to even more people.

Well good luck Jim.

It's clear that you are set in your ways and I hope you do well in it.
I have no idea about your organisation or it's acceptance in the dive world and organisations that divers frequent to hire equipment. It's a shame you are so closed to the largest dive organisation in the world when a representative suggests your input could be valuable but of course, you have your reasons. What was the name of your dive organisation again?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Tri's SSI cert is only the second largest in the world behind PADI. NAUI has worldwide acceptance and was right behind the YMCA as to when it started. My agency, SEI, Scuba Educators International evolved from the Y program when it shut down. We have instructors in 31states and 9 countries. I personally began a worldwide email campaign to familiarize ops and resorts with our agency. Our CEO is a past board member and treasurer of the WRSTC. We are recognized and insured. We have a 50 year tradition of skills and education based scuba training and as opposed to some other agencies we have actually toughened some of our standards for training. And the way it is now any dive center would simply need to see one of our students in the water to be assured of their competency. And I'm betting that with today's economy no dive center would turn away a paying, qualified customer, Hell they aren;t turning away unqualified ones.

I suggest for more info you take a look at the SEI forum here on SB. No disrespect but you sound alot like my PADI instructor who did his best to keep me in the dark about other agencies, training methods, and was very upset when I discovered that PADI was NOT the way the world learns to dive.There are alot more ways to learn, go pro, etc etc etc.

 

[pilot fish]

Where is this new term, DG, and its designation, in the PADI manual I can't find it. If a Dive Operation offers the newbie divers on a dive boat a DM but the person that leads the dive is in fact just a Dive Guide, is that fraud? Does a DM convey an extra measure of security to the newbie diver?