Divemaster Responsibilities

[GaryLee]

Well, this isn't about me really, although I do like a bit of attention - my wife's an air hostess so too much time alone

Yes, I take issue with PADI - and all my formal instruction has been through PADI. I *might* do their rescue course. The reason I might not is not to do with the course content or quality of the course but more a protest against the OW course. I've no knowledge of other agencies so my issue is with PADI alone. I feel that I was very incompletely equipped to be a diver after my OW course. The time frame is just too short. It's that simple really.

If all goes welll, as it mostly does, then PADI OW training suffices. If it doesn't well, then as the OP has shown, it can go very badly indeed.

Maybe we're all fighting the same cause here - better training.

But how are we going to achieve it????

Cool, so now we get to the crux of it.

You don't feel that the training you had was sufficient. Fair Point.
I cant argue with that, people learn and feek comfortable at different rates.
It was good of your wife to put together the list of Competencies in which she had no knowledge of or experience but it has no relivence on 40 years of learning and experince.

so where does that leave us?
if you are based in the UK I am more than happy to take you for a dive, assertain your knowlege through questions and your skills through observation and thereby give you an approprite level of competence if that's what you want.

What is it that you actually want and why didn't you make your feelings clearer sooner of you feel that PADI aren't training divers suitably?

 

[cerich]

You are very right. if this was a further course with an agency then that's exactly what should happen. In this case it was a guided dive. Follow the guide. It takes a lot of time to start realizing the difference between a "Guide" and the person we call "DiveMaster" perhaps the dive industry's perception of a DiveMaster in a Boat needs to be re-evaluated, what do you think?

You honestly want to know what I think?

Ok....

you don't seem to have a clue. You are basing you case on what is "supposed" to be, not the reality of what is happening in dive training. Your defending "your agency" (and I am also a PADI Instructor among others) when really it isn't PADI standards at fault so much as industry norms. This could easily have happened with any agency.

I don't dispute that people are ultimately responsible for their own safety, however to believe that the majority of newly qualified open water divers are actually competent divers defies the truth. They are only trained in conditions similar with regard to things like DEPTH to that trained. So if you are a responsible DM and have a newly minted OW diver you know they are only trained to 60 ft. What is so hard to understand about that? If an OW diver doesn't show experience and competence (thru logbook and a checkout dive) you keep them on easier and safer dives where they are less likely to kill themselves (and others as has happened all to often). That is being a professional.

Really all I see in your postings are needless defense of PADI and an attitude of shirking responsibility as a professional. It saddens me.

Now before you blast me for being a donkey, please remember you did ask me what I think.

 

[cerich]

I can only speak for PADI in as much as .

A certification card is earn't
you work towards it and show mastery and competence.

On my PADI IDC it was STRESSED many times by the CD that to PADI, mastery and competence was met by demonstrating the skill at least once. Has that changed?

Many would not feel that mastery and competence is demonstratively achieved by being able to do a skill once correctly so the box can get checked.

How do you feel about that?


EDIT- Thas actually posted the relevant standards below, they exceed what I posted above (I crossed over to PADI in 1997)...however they are still far from what many would consider mastery.

 

[InTheDrink]

Gary, I'd love to dive with you. And you'd probably be surprised that I'm not so crap (to contradict myself).

The simple non agency specific point is that OW is granted to quickly. I was totally **** for 3 years after certifying (and most of those as AOW). There's too much money in giving poeple what they want. That's why PADI are so successful and I salute them for that, on a commercial basis.

But to think that someone who is PADI OW qualified can dive - really, really, think again.

You're in Berkshire - not too far. PM me if you fancy getting wet with an SN antagonist - seriously tho - I appreciate you're in a position but if you're around be great to shout at each other with larynx's

 

[Thalassamania]

Actuallu Mastery is spelt ut in black and white with regards to to diving and the skills therein. (within PADI anyway)
You really need to look at all the facts.

Who is asking you to do anything else?

Last time I checked, a dictionary was the usual FACTUAL source for the meaning of a word.

PADI says:

"During the Confined Water Dives, mastery is defined as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of an Open Water Diver.

"A student who manages to meet the stated performance requirements in such a way that it raises a question as to whether the student could reliably perform the skill for multiple repetitions has not met the definition of mastery. Beginning student divers need not perform a skill with the polish expected of a divemaster, but should practice until you are confident they can perform the skill reliably."
​

So what is the FACT? The dictionary (e.g., possession of consummate skill) or PADI (e.g., something significantly less that consummate skill, to wit: something rather less than just the polish expected of a divemaster)?

What is the FACT?

See also: several threads that try to figure out what that means: On Mastery, standards and the breaking of and my exchange with Jviehe starting with post 22 on page 3 of How fast is too fast.

I am more than willing to talk about any aspect of diving, the regulations that surround it and the agencies but only using facts.

I answered you question with respect to how we evaluate students, would you now please be so kind as to reciprocate and answer my question: "On that scale how would rate the divers that you train?"

 

[GaryLee]

You honestly want to know what I think?

Ok....

you don't seem to have a clue. You are basing you case on what is "supposed" to be, not the reality of what is happening in dive training. Your defending "your agency" (and I am also a PADI Instructor among others) when really it isn't PADI standards at fault so much as industry norms. This could easily have happened with any agency.

I don't dispute that people are ultimately responsible for their own safety, however to believe that the majority of newly qualified open water divers are actually competent divers defies the truth. They are only trained in conditions similar with regard to things like DEPTH to that trained. So if you are a responsible DM and have a newly minted OW diver you know they are only trained to 60 ft. What is so hard to understand about that? If an OW diver doesn't show experience and competence (thru logbook and a checkout dive) you keep them on easier and safer dives where they are less likely to kill themselves (and others as has happened all to often). That is being a professional.

Really all I see in your postings are needless defense of PADI and an attitude of shirking responsibility as a professional. It saddens me.

Now before you blast me for being a donkey, please remember you did ask me what I think.

Completely see what you are saying.
I am now removing myself from the discussion as it has moved off topic and by defending my corner I am evidently opening up a can of worms.

I defend PADI as a dive organisation Wholeheartely, I know they will also back me with years of legal expertise and as the foremost dive agency in the World (yes I know other agencies have been around longer, I can even quote the dates...), but All agencies look to PADI for guidance.

For those divers out there, if you aren't completely happy with your training then say something.

Instructors, do as I do and let your studnets know they have a choice and if you haven't taught someone to the standard you are happy with, don't pass them. I Don't



Finally.

 

[GaryLee]

On my PADI IDC it was STRESSED many times by the CD that to PADI, mastery and competence was met by demonstrating the skill at least once. Has that changed?

Many would not feel that mastery and competence is demonstratively achieved by being able to do a skill once correctly so the box can get checked.

How do you feel about that?

NO!
Mastery is shown as being able to demonstrate the skill in a way that is repeatable NOT ONCE.
Your Course Director in no way told you otherwise and should you ask him he will correct you.

 

[InTheDrink]

Erm, Thal, Gary - I think there's potentially some interesting things to be learned from this thread.

Overt aggression will likely make sure that doesn't happen.

Thal - words aren't really important here, the concepts are what count I believe.

Gary - you're up against it, please don't feel too put upon

In any meeting I have, I always try to define what the goal is.

What's the goal from this thread???

 

[cerich]

NO!
Mastery is shown as being able to demonstrate the skill in a way that is repeatable NOT ONCE.
Your Course Director in no way told you otherwise and should you ask him he will correct you.

I never followed his advice on that anyhow,I crossed over to PADI in 1997, the standard may (or may not have) been revised since. What Thass posted above is better but still not mastery, really. Muscle memory, non conscious ability to perform skills is to me a bare requirement for competence, mastery takes years and total mastery is unachievable to most.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I came up thru PADI to the DM level. Shortly before starting DM I found this message board. In about 3 months my eyes became opened to things I had never seen. Up until that time I thought PADI was the be all and end all of diving. Then I began to see things that did not sit right with me. It really began during Dm classroom with all the emphasis on selling more stuff. Especially the useless certs. Boat Diver, Fish ID, Manatee Wrangler, How to screw up your vision to wear this type of mask. I was also working towards my Master Diver cert. Then I found out that damn near every specialty counts towards it and that made it seem pretty worthless to me. Around tha ttime they also came out with the E Learning and that cinched it for me.

SHortly after completing Dm I met my tech Instructor ( NAUI). Holy Crap there was another agency that did not base it's training program on marketing and profit. My tech instructor was also a YMCA Instructor Trainer. He never pushed me but merely suggested I think about crossing over to the Y as a DM /AI. Well I looked at the program- Holy Double Crap one based solely on skills and education! Non profit like NAUI, supports independents, And Dm's can actually gain experience teaching by TEACHING! Not paying 2 K plus for a 10 day crash course in marketing. And really that;s what it is.

I know for a fact IDC candidates who were docked points for spending too much time on dive theory and not pushing con-ed enough in their exams! What kind of bull shiite is that? I still say I want to see some of these weekend wonders take my final OW exam a month after they have taken the PADI exam. I know there are some questions that will dumbfound them such as the ones dealing with deco tables should you accidentally go into it, rescue skills, and some of the general knowledge as well. Do you know for certain that they understand everything in the book? Was everything reviewed with them? or do you go by the answers to the quick quizzes and KR's?

I know for a fact that this way is less than optimal. I myself did not know any better and went thru all 5 chapters- quizzes, KR's, and the table exercises at home in 2 days! Then went over them in 3 sessions where the quizzes were gone over, KR's handed in and exam taken. Aced all of them! 3 pool sessions. Clear mask kneeling on the bottom, other basic skills all kneeling. No mask swim, fin pivot, hover, etc. Then checkouts over a weekend. dove again 2 weeks later. Remembered how to do it. 2 weeks after that I barely remembered what I did as far as classroom stuff. Same as in college- cram, pass, forget.

My students don;t have that. I spend 16 hours in class and 16 in pool. I know for a fact that they have everything down and will remember it. I do not even talk about con-ed until the last class session. They need to master the basics before thinking about going on. I insist they get 10 OW dives in on their own with their buddy or me before I will even accept them for AOW. If a student from another agency except perhaps NAUI ( and I know the instructor) comes for AOW from me they need to have min 10 dives post OW, pass my interview, show me their logbook, and maybe do a pool session to see if they are ready to go on to AOW. If I feel their skills are not up to it I will not accept them. My AOW class has 6-8 hours of classroom to cover gas management, Navigation, S&R, Night /Low Vis, and Advanced Skills. This last dive is to work on buoyancy and trim that will be required on all the dives to pass while performing skills, anti silting kicks, back kicks, helicopter turns, shooting a bag, and some new rescue skills. I do not offer stupid stuff as part of AOW like Fish ID because it does nothing to improve their skills.

I also have to look at the people who have died recently and see who they were trained by. My students would never think of doing trust me dives or blindly following a DM. If I thought they would they would not get a card from me. Besides passing the class in pool, classroom and checkouts I have another qualification for them to pass my course- If I would not trust them to dive with my son, daughter, wife, or other loved one with out a DM or other Pro in the water I will not give them a card until I'm satisfied they could. THis not only goes to their skills and knowledge but their attitude towards safety and diving in general. My learning agreement specifies tuiton guarantees training- It does not guarantee certification.