Divemaster Responsibilities

[pilot fish]

I'm feeling the same thing JClynes is feeling, a kind of disgust with the dive community/industry now. Everything is rosy, safe and good natured, while you are getting certified. Yeah, they mentioned things in class, a lot of things, but does each and every bit sink in, where that fraction of what you learned, or is it just heard?, in class is formost in your mind. Of course not! Remember back. You are a brand new diver. You are getting your gear ready, is my air on?, where is my inflator hose, stay calm, follow the DM, you are very nervous so you focuse on the things you need to. You think, the DM, the Dive Op will not take me to a place that is above my skill level. hell, you're not even sure WHAT your skill level is. The DM tells jokes, does his Calypso tip dance and says, the pool is open. Splash and a whole new world has opened. You are in senseory overload.

OK, you know what hits the fan, something bad happens and now it is a different story, a different tune. He's dead because he screwed up, he didn't take respobsibility for himself, he should have known better. Really? Now it's no fault of the dive op or dm, it's the diver. All of a sudden the dive pros are cold and exaxct. You've already paid for your new gear.

You know what my instructor said to me after I had a bunch of dives that were very different from what was taught/said in class? Well, now you know the reality of diving. Uh, yeah, sad to say, I do. :depressed:

 

[Ardy]

These situations bring out the basic part of diving. It is easy to die down there. Most new divers, which we all were at some stage, dont get this. I also understand how a diver can just follow a DM. I dived to 140ft on a night dive before I pulled out in Vanuatu in 70's, nobody apart from the dm had more than 50 dives and evidently they touched 200. This was stupid but at least I started back, others folllowed this idiot to 200.

You are primarily responsible for your own safety and the sooner new divers get this message the less will die. Training and experience are absolutely essential in an environment where there is no air.

The rest of the argument about the DM's responsibility is all bull to me. After you are qualified you should not put your life in the hands of a DM, some of whom may have less diving experience than you think they do, the majority are young men with heaps of testosterone.

The bottom line for me here is this guy wanted to dive to 100ft and he got narked and died, it happens, he should have notified the DM he was going up when he first felt the onset of NN, if indeed he recognised it.

Looking to blame someone smacks of the modern world's view - 'someone is responsible for my stupidity, it can't be me!'

 

[pilot fish]

Simple solution, this cuts all the BS and misunderstanding out IMMEDIATELY. Have a VISABLE sign on the boat, and at the dive Ops when you sign in, DM is your guide ONLY and you should not rely on them for your safety. Your safety is your own concern. You are on your own below.

That clears it up real fast. In other words, don't say one thing, convey one impression, pre dive and then another one after the dive, when something goes wrong. Sound fair enough?

 

[pilot fish]

tip accordingly

 

[Dtaine]

Maybe it's just that I feel that if more experienced divers aren't going to look out for the newbies then I prefer if they could be clear about that and we could agree to **** off in our own different directions. .........

Must say tho, I'd hate to leave any of my children with peeps like you for more than one second. Clearly you look after yourself and yourself alone and to the letter of the law.

Much - MUCH - more worrying is the prevalent view on this board that newbs are alone. Tough ****, **** off, work it out yourself.

I'm just frustrated. The diver who died shouldn't have. Yeah he made mistakes. But newbs in any activity do. Newbs rely on pros to keep them within safe parameters and this DM did not fulfil this.

Wow, just wow; I think this is representative of how the idea of personal responsibility has really been shattered these days. This guy was 58, not a child, he was certified to standards, and given the sloping bottom at the site, apparently had to put some effort into getting to 346 feet.

People like me are actually quite willing to work with others, we just expect everyone to take responsibility for their own actions. "Newbs" aren't alone, but we're also not going to chase after them if they go to 11 and a half atmospheres on a single tank.

In response to the last of your quotes above, I'm sorry, but "newbs" are still responsible for basic aspects of their safety, such as operating a BC and watching their depth and air consumption.

But yes, I think you are responsible to some degree. This is your business, you asked for money - in fact you trolled for the shooter - you gave him a gun, maybe even one with an unsafe firing mechanism. You told him he could draw and shoot as fast as he could, because it was fun, because a lot of other people who came there liked to do that. You probably had pictures of that on your website and bragged about it yourself. You sold the fantasy. Maybe you even ordered him to do it.

Remind me to never go shooting with you, ever.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

Like I said, certain attitudes have made me both sad and angry.

I've dived with a load of DMs and usually they've been brill, from brief to beer. Fun and safety have been encapsulated. The DM in question clearly royally ****ed up. But we all do and if this was a one off my heart really goes out to him. Poor soul.

Much - MUCH - more worrying is the prevalent view on this board that newbs are alone. Tough ****, **** off, work it out yourself.

Hence why my opinion of the profession has dropped dramatically.

This really stung - if I was one of the people that came off to you like this then please understand that this was not my intent.

I take my teaching very seriously and I spend a lot of time reading how more experienced instructors do things and handle situations so that I am better prepared as a pro and also am able to train better divers.

Also on any dive that I am on, even if I am not in an instructing role I will always keep an eye out for not only my buddy but for any other divers at the same site. I believe that all the pro's that have chimed in here would do the same. The issue that I have is when any diver - new or experienced, EXPECT that I will hold their hand for a dive. I want all my students and dive buddies to enjoy the sport as much as I do and will go out of my way to make this happen but please don't put your life in my hands ... I try to teach thinking divers and expect my buddies to be that as well.

 

[rmc77]

IMHO, and this have been said before, "Safety is everyone’s responsibility". Divers, DMs, Dive Centers, boat crew.... EVERYONE.

We all need to remember that if we own a business of any kind, we're legally responsible for the safety of employees or customers. There are several ways to limit the liability your business is exposed to... One way that’s very common in your world? The very first form we sign, which states, “I understand diving is a dangerous activity...” I guess everyone knows what I’m talking about. Well, I’m sorry to say this is only good if doesn't goes against the laws of the country. If the country doesn't accept as a legal document, so sorry...

So, what's my point here? First, yes, the diver is main responsible for it's own safety. But it doesn't mean whoever is offering the service is not legally responsible. To each extent is up to the country’s code of laws to decide and to the investigation findings. Some countries are stricter than others, some are not prepared to deal with these situations, but that’s the world we leave.

We can be arguing this issue here for months in a row, assuming lots of things without getting to the bottom of the problem. But at the end, this is indeed a very good example of why we should not trust our life to anyone other than ourselves. If DMs and Dive Centers are legally responsible or not, that’s a different question. I personally don’t make them responsible for my life, but I would not dive again (and I have some dive centers around the world in my black list) if they don’t take their function seriously. Diving is a dangerous sport, the danger is there, and there is no way to change that. Agencies can advertize what they want, but the danger cannot be removed, we can only reduce the risk with proper behavior, period. You don’t blindly trust that the cars will stop when you’re crossing the street, right?

Cheers

Rafael

 

[Ardy]

The split here between personal responsibility and 'someone is responsible' seems fairly even. I am shocked by this as I was always taught from the very first instructor I met to be responsible for myself. Why did this all change? Down there when it starts to go wrong, screaming that somebody else is responsible is not going to save your life.

On the surface it seems that those on the 'someone else is responsible' side of the fence prefer to emote strongly and then go looking for the responsible person maybe to sue the pants off.

For my part I would rather try to stay alive and look after myself. I have never found either a DM or an experienced diver who was not interested in giving newbies hints and help if it's asked for. Some times I have noticed a tank not turned on or something like this and get no thanks and just a glare from a diver maybe for 'showing them up' I dont know.

Maybe the lack of support from DM's that several have been complaining about is due to some of them being sued because 'you said it was OK to go' or something like this.

I also strongly suspect that this guy did not dive to 300+ft, it' s highly likely he slipped down there after he was unconcious.

 

[ScubaSteve]

The problem is, if you do a search right here on ScubaBoard, there are tons of stories of DM doing EXACTLY THAT. Putting the tip jar first. And, there are always a ton of people here to defend their actions. I am with Tim on this one....if you cannot do it "on your own - w/buddy) then do not dive. BUT, that is not reality today so I say that part of the ownership of the problem (and I stress only part) should be shouldered by the Dive OP and the DM themselves.

They should be making it perfectly clear that they are not there to keep anybody safe and beyond the briefing, they have no responsiblities in or out of the water (but being professionals they would do whatever they could without harming themselves). If that is made perfectly clear every time, we would still have problems but at least the divers would know where they stand.

That way when the DM has to leave the rest of the group to save one idiot (no reference to the story which initiated this thread) then they are not breaking any rules. I believe we have allowed lawyers and Corporate bigwigs to muddy the waters (pardon the pun) and it is now left to them to forever decipher it each time.

DM is GUIDE ONLY, not there for YOUR SAFETY

Well, I think we are coming full circle on ideas and the thread is still going strong. Because this whole issue revolves around the fact that divers (many anyways) seem to have an incorrect idea of what the Diver Operator and Dive Master and Captain etc. are there to provide, I think the truly simple solution is for them to just be up front and tell people. As stated before (my quote from post 405 of this thread above), this is IMO a simple solution. That way everybody knows where they stand. That way if we disagree, we, as a diver, can choose ahead of time to follow a different path (try a different OP or maybe hire a dedicated "rescue diver" or their idea of a DM).

We would still be mad and sad when we lost a loved one but at least we would know they knew what the rules were before they splashed.

 

[pilot fish]

So I'm clear on what you concur on. Do you concur that a sign telling everyone that a DM is just a guide and not responsible for brand new diver's safety should be posted at Dive Op shop and on each dive boat?

Absolutely concur ~ and yes indeed, tip accordingly. If you tie service to moolah, then at least theoretically, those offering greater service and collecting greater revenue, should cull the herd, as it were.
Cindy