Divemaster Responsibilities

[GaryLee]

I would also love to see this happen. My students would have no issue with it at all! Except even my OW students would know how to properly plan to be back at the boat with 500 psi and know why they did it. You would also not have PADI DM/Instructors in Cozumel taking new divers and OW certed divers on these 100 foot drifts or into the throat. I really don't understand how they get away with this when it;s common knowledge it goes on. I mean I do because the so-called 5 star designation has nothing to do with quality. It's about how much money they send PADI's way through certs, materials, and the like. I'm really surprised that they don;t have a specialty for it like the deep drift cozumel diver card.

Even though SEI OW students are technically certed to 100 feet It is recommended they do not go beyond 60 without taking the proper steps to do so. ie further training, gradually increasing their depth limit over time and a good number of dives, and diving with a buddy they can trust of at least equal experience. Of course we cover deco, rescue, and insist on good watermanship skills in OW class. And the course is 32 hours plus checkouts and quickie courses(one weekend) are forbidden by standards and even the two weekend ones are discouraged. A person can only absorb and RETAIN so much knowledge per session. To force feed them everything to get them through the class is stupid and irresponsible.

I admit it. I too agree that the courses are shrunk for time and money considerations. I am lucky to work for uk organisations that don't frown apon the instructors taking longer on courses and I guess that means that for the last 9 years I've been spoilt. The PADI OW Course can meet Performance Requirements and Standards in 3 Days if the student is bright and prepared. ie: has done all of the knowledge portion of the course and watched the video at home. We don't do it that way though, it's a minimum 4 day course and that's spread over two weekends minimum.

The Good news is that with Elearning we can still take 4 days and the classroom work is all but done freeing up lots more practical time.

 

[ScubaSteve]

What I can't accept is that a true professional DM wouldn't make the safety of the divers the primary concern above the customer's enjoyment or the contents of the tip jar. If you keep the divers safe first, and give them what they need to enjoy the experience second, the content of the tip jar should take care of itself. Even if it doesn't, at least the DM will be able to sleep at night.

The problem is, if you do a search right here on ScubaBoard, there are tons of stories of DM doing EXACTLY THAT. Putting the tip jar first. And, there are always a ton of people here to defend their actions. I am with Tim on this one....if you cannot do it "on your own - w/buddy) then do not dive. BUT, that is not reality today so I say that part of the ownership of the problem (and I stress only part) should be shouldered by the Dive OP and the DM themselves.

They should be making it perfectly clear that they are not there to keep anybody safe and beyond the briefing, they have no responsiblities in or out of the water (but being professionals they would do whatever they could without harming themselves). If that is made perfectly clear every time, we would still have problems but at least the divers would know where they stand.

That way when the DM has to leave the rest of the group to save one idiot (no reference to the story which initiated this thread) then they are not breaking any rules. I believe we have allowed lawyers and Corporate bigwigs to muddy the waters (pardon the pun) and it is now left to them to forever decipher it each time.

 

[GaryLee]

They should be making it perfectly clear that they are not there to keep anybody safe and beyond the briefing, they have no responsiblities in or out of the water (but being professionals they would do whatever they could without harming themselves). If that is made perfectly clear every time, we would still have problems but at least the divers would know where they stand.

Now that sounds like a very sensible solution

 

[Web Monkey]

I would hope you would be like myself and the majority of instructors and would instill in students all the way through their dive career that they are responsible for themselves and not to expect anyone else to look after them with the exception that in a time of need they could turn to their buddy and vis a versa.

How much "instilling" can you do in a 2 day class and still cover the mandatory parts of the curriculum?

In this case, I'd be tremendously surprised if the victim had enough training to reliably find the inflator and exhaust valves on his BC.

Terry

 

[GaryLee]

How much "instilling" can you do in a 2 day class and still cover the mandatory parts of the curriculum?

In this case, I'd be tremendously surprised if the victim had enough training to reliably find the inflator and exhaust valves on his BC.

Terry

well Terry, either you place no faith in your own training. or you are think that Instructors like myself can't do that "Instilling"..

Either way, come along and see a PADI Instructor teach a course.
How much more can I give you?

 

[Web Monkey]

well Terry, either you place no faith in your own training. or you are think that Instructors like myself can't do that "Instilling"..

Not just you. I don't think there's an instructor on the planet that can create a competent, confident diver in one or two weekends.

Counting the victim in this thread who had either 2 or 4 classes (not sure at this point) and given the number of posts on SB from new divers who were either terrified or had the brown stuff hit the fan on their first dives, I'm pretty sure that this isn't the product of my imagination.

Every PADI instructor I've heard on this board that teaches a fast class will swear on a stack of bibles that it's the best thing since one cave-man taught another how to sharpen a rock.

However without exception, every single one I've talked to in person in private says they do it because they're pressured by their employer and are terrified of someone getting hurt or killed.

Terry

 

[cerich]

well Terry, either you place no faith in your own training. or you are think that Instructors like myself can't do that "Instilling"..

Either way, come along and see a PADI Instructor teach a course.
How much more can I give you?

oh for crying out loud.

few thing I KNOW having been in this game for some time

Some instructors are great and make good solid divers
Others suck and make crap divers
as a dive instructor/divemaster the ONLY way to know what we are dealing with is to actually observe in the water
a RESPONSIBLE instructor/DM does that in the safest manner possible, not a wall dive with newly certified divers they have never seen in the water before. That is stupid and places EVERYBODY at undue and unneeded risk.
The whole blame the diver thing sometimes is ABSOLUTELY correct, for good examples of recently dead divers look no further than the double deaths at School Sink or the triple deaths on the Speigal Grove last year (the year before?) HOWEVER that isn't always the case.

The majority of new divers perceive the divemaster as being there for safety, you know that. Because of that some divers become dependent divers, to not recognize that and appropriate response is to make a complete and utter mockery of a DM/Instructor being a professional.

I KNOW the the guy that started DD so you can take this for exactly what it is.

 

[GaryLee]

Not just you. I don't think there's an instructor on the planet that can create a competent, confident diver in one or two weekends.

Counting the victim in this thread who had either 2 or 4 classes (not sure at this point) and given the number of posts on SB from new divers who were either terrified or had the brown stuff hit the fan on their first dives, I'm pretty sure that this isn't the product of my imagination.

Every PADI instructor I've heard on this board that teaches a fast class will swear on a stack of bibles that it's the best thing since one cave-man taught another how to sharpen a rock.

However without exception, every single one I've talked to in person in private says they do it because they're pressured by their employer and are terrified of someone getting hurt or killed.

Terry

Well Terry I'm not one of them so I guess it's time to back up my views
in 18 years of diving I've been very lucky

My PADI Number is 6 1 5 8 3 9
you get my name from here, I am forthright and will back up PADI 100%

Was your training not of the standard to make sure you knew what to do, how not to be pressured and how to be an individual.. I can of course quote from memory many lovely passages that you were told if you are a PADI Instructor. I can quote from "the Law and The Diving Professsional" that you were told to read. so perhaps your niggles are based on your own training? Did you personally feel that the training you were given wasn't enough?

 

[Thalassamania]

GaryLee: Where would you place your new O/W divers on this scale?

 

[GaryLee]

oh for crying out loud.

few thing I KNOW having been in this game for some time

Some instructors are great and make good solid divers
Others suck and make crap divers
as a dive instructor/divemaster the ONLY way to know what we are dealing with is to actually observe in the water
a RESPONSIBLE instructor/DM does that in the safest manner possible, not a wall dive with newly certified divers they have never seen in the water before. That is stupid and places EVERYBODY at undue and unneeded risk.
The whole blame the diver thing sometimes is ABSOLUTELY correct, for good examples of recently dead divers look no further than the double deaths at School Sink or the triple deaths on the Speigal Grove last year (the year before?) HOWEVER that isn't always the case.

The majority of new divers perceive the divemaster as being there for safety, you know that. Because of that some divers become dependent divers, to not recognize that and appropriate response is to make a complete and utter mockery of a DM/Instructor being a professional.

I KNOW the the guy that started DD so you can take this for exactly what it is.

You are very right. if this was a further course with an agency then that's exactly what should happen. In this case it was a guided dive. Follow the guide. It takes a lot of time to start realising the difference between a "Guide" and the person we call "DiveMaster" perhaps the dive industry's perception of a DiveMaster in a Boat needs to be re-evaluated, what do you think?