Divemaster Responsibilities

[ScubaSteve]

......What I am asking is: If an OW diver pays to dive with a shop where it is DM or DG led, would there have been anything in their DM certification that told them not to take said OW diver below 'X' feet? Or said "AOW....? I would also have thought that the insurance providers for the DM's and shops would want to limit their exposure by adding clauses to their riders...but maybe not.

......As mentioned earlier a DM has the ethical requirement to follow the standard safe diving practices statement of understanding, as does the individual diver, which does state "engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience", however there is no mention of depth. The complete statement should be available on the PADI web site.

So, I think my edit from above makes it clear what I am asking. And since the above replies were for certification dives they I would expect do not apply. However, your post quoted above seems to stipulate that the DM/DG has the ethical responsibility to keep all dives to depths which do not exceed those maximums mandated for Cert dives? That to me does not make sense but perhaps it is the answer. If that is the case then how are cross agency issues resolved.

I know I am digging deep on this question but I have never seen it asked or answered. And, I would be surprised if there was no part of the DM course and training that did NOT cover what you can and cannot (or even should or should not but this leaves it wishy washy) do when acting as a DM/DG on a fun non-certification dive.

 

[GaryLee]

What I am asking is: If an OW diver pays to dive with a shop where it is DM or DG led, would there have been anything in their DM certification that told them not to take said OW diver below 'X' feet? Or said "AOW....? I would also have thought that the insurance providers for the DM's and shops would want to limit their exposure by adding clauses to their riders...but maybe not.

there is nothing in the Divemaster Lectures or the Instructor lectures that tell a PADI Professional that there is a Depth limit when guiding as you are not guiding for the Agency ieADI but for the diver. Local laws, Best Practice and commercial dive outfits have their own limits. What is told to PADI Dive Professionals is what a RPSI would do and to look at each case individually as a RPSI (Reasonably Prudent SCUBA Instructor). Hope that helps.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Thanks Gary. That is sort of what I expected but it really is a bit surprising.....I know I should not be surprised though.

 

[GaryLee]

However, when children aged 10-11 are participating; direct supervision
is required at a maximum ratio of 4:1. No more than two children
aged 10-11 may be included in any group of four student divers.
Dives must not exceed 12 metres/40 feet.

On a guided tour - the above requirement is listed for "discover local diving" and depth is only mentioned for a dive where children are participating.

Sean, you are right but This is for a PADI Sanctioned course and not for "guiding" persay.

Having said that, the outline as I am sure you've read is a good starting point for guides to use and most would cover the points in their briefings naturally.

 

[Seanpaul]

there is nothing in the Divemaster Lectures or the Instructor lectures that tell a PADI Professional that there is a Depth limit when guiding as you are not guiding for the Agency ieADI but for the diver. Local laws, Best Practice and commercial dive outfits have their own limits. What is told to PADI Dive Professionals is what a RPSI would do and to look at each case individually as a RPSI (Reasonably Prudent SCUBA Instructor). Hope that helps.

Sean, you are right but This is for a PADI Sanctioned course and not for "guiding" persay.

Having said that, the outline as I am sure you've read is a good starting point for guides to use and most would cover the points in their briefings naturally.

Agreed.

 

[Thalassamania]

With PADI there are Maximum recommended depths that on a Course Students can go to.
These are only recommended and diving beyond them is not without risk. both for the instructor and for student. If an instructor takes a student whilst on a course beyond these recommendations and something happens then although the instructor has not broken any laws or standards he has not acted as a Reasonably Prudent SCUBA Instructor would and therefore this part of any ensuing action would not be looked at favourably for him. A Dive Guide no matter what his rating has no such restrictions placed apon him as he is not there as a mentor / instructor and is not representing any Agency whilst guiding.
I am sure othr people will put there 5 cents in on this and I can always come back with PADI's International Limited's Official reply to this or any other question should you want it.

Gary Lee and Steve50 have it right. If you are functioning as a Certified Assistant to a PADI Instructor led course (DM or above) then you must follow the rules of the course of instruction as per the PADI Instructor Manual and you are either under direct or indirect supervision of the Instructor, depending on the task you are performing.

As mentioned earlier a DM has the ethical requirement to follow the standard safe diving practices statement of understanding, as does the individual diver, which does state "engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience", however there is no mention of depth. The complete statement should be available on the PADI web site.

there is nothing in the Divemaster Lectures or the Instructor lectures that tell a PADI Professional that there is a Depth limit when guiding as you are not guiding for the Agency ieADI but for the diver. Local laws, Best Practice and commercial dive outfits have their own limits. What is told to PADI Dive Professionals is what a RPSI would do and to look at each case individually as a RPSI (Reasonably Prudent SCUBA Instructor). Hope that helps.

This is so much Happy Horse S---. There is not some mystical change that occurs after the last OW class dive. If a dive "professional" is leading a dive that "professional" should follow the recommendations of their training, saying that it is not required by standards, and thus is not a responsibility, is transparent sea lawyering, as is the ex post facto crap about dive guiding vs dive mastering.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The only way it will happen is if someone sues PADI's butt off or files some sort of criminal charges against the officers.

I'd like to see the DM to give the briefing and stay on the boat, and would be willing to bet that when divers have to jump off the end of the boat with nothing to rely on except their training and their buddy and instructions to "be back in an hour or @ 500 PSI", the 2-day OW classes would vanish faster than a $20 bill at a casino.

Terry

I would also love to see this happen. My students would have no issue with it at all! Except even my OW students would know how to properly plan to be back at the boat with 500 psi and know why they did it. You would also not have PADI DM/Instructors in Cozumel taking new divers and OW certed divers on these 100 foot drifts or into the throat. I really don't understand how they get away with this when it;s common knowledge it goes on. I mean I do because the so-called 5 star designation has nothing to do with quality. It's about how much money they send PADI's way through certs, materials, and the like. I'm really surprised that they don;t have a specialty for it like the deep drift cozumel diver card.

Even though SEI OW students are technically certed to 100 feet It is recommended they do not go beyond 60 without taking the proper steps to do so. ie further training, gradually increasing their depth limit over time and a good number of dives, and diving with a buddy they can trust of at least equal experience. Of course we cover deco, rescue, and insist on good watermanship skills in OW class. And the course is 32 hours plus checkouts and quickie courses(one weekend) are forbidden by standards and even the two weekend ones are discouraged. A person can only absorb and RETAIN so much knowledge per session. To force feed them everything to get them through the class is stupid and irresponsible.

 

[GaryLee]

This is so much Happy Horse S---. There is not some mystical change that occurs after the last OW class dive. If a dive "professional" is leading a dive that "professional" should follow the recommendations of their training, saying that it is not required by standards, and thus is not a responsibility, is transparent sea lawyering, as is the ex post facto crap about dive guiding vs dive mastering.

We are talking about Guiding a dive. When an employee guides a dive the divers are responsible for themselves the Guide doesn't necessarily need to be a professional. also in some places there are no dive guides there is only a DiveMaster persay (in name) that briefs the dive and does not enter the water. That is not part of their responsibility. There is a huge difference. I read your profile, there is no way you put yourself in the hands of the dive guide and I can not believe that the majority of your dives have been done with guides watching over you.

I would hope you would be like myself and the majority of instructors and would instill in students all the way through their dive career that they are responsible for themselves and not to expect anyone else to look after them with the exception that in a time of need they could turn to their buddy and vis a versa.

I'll go so far as to say that decent instructors who follow the Open Water course outline during the knowledge development portion of the couse will Emphasis that it is the divers Responsibility to stay with their Buddy, plan the dive with their buddy and stay with the plan. they will also go through all of the conciderations that should be discussed with their buddy prior to the dive. I have taught hundreds of students and everyone of them has had the presentation on Caring for yourself, preventing problems, care for others and problem solving, solution thinking. It's a presentation for a reason and I for one will not compromise. that's why I am confident that the 9 students I have on Saturday Morning for the weekend in the classroom and the pool are going to walk away Sunday evening ready to continue their education and complete their open water.

 

[bsee65]

This is so much Happy Horse S---. There is not some mystical change that occurs after the last OW class dive. If a dive "professional" is leading a dive that "professional" should follow the recommendations of their training, saying that it is not required by standards, and thus is not a responsibility, is transparent sea lawyering, as is the ex post facto crap about dive guiding vs dive mastering.

Certainly seems that way. No DM will accept a formal definition of their position that could open them up to liability in the event of an incident. I can understand that in today's society. What I can't accept is that a true professional DM wouldn't make the safety of the divers the primary concern above the customer's enjoyment or the contents of the tip jar. If you keep the divers safe first, and give them what they need to enjoy the experience second, the content of the tip jar should take care of itself. Even if it doesn't, at least the DM will be able to sleep at night.

I will add the the certifying agency's contention that actions outside of the specs of a formal class aren't their responsibility is also "Happy Horse S---". If they are going to stick "PADI 5 star" stickers all over the place, then their name is attached. While they may not bear responsibility for the unsafe acts of a single DM, they do share it when you see varous reports of issues with no action taken. Let's start with revoking cards or suspending DMs with questionable records, and requiring periodic re-certification for all levels above AOW.

 

[netmage]

If the diver can't complete a dive on their own, under their own responsibility, they shouldn't be issued an OW card... End of discussion.....

Quit trying to allow people to sign away their own personal responsibility by cutting a check...