Dive Centers with AED On Board Dive Boat?

[bowlofpetunias]

Sorry part of the terminology problem here is a result of different terms used in different places. We tend to call an AED a Defib here. We do not shorten the term defibulate which is the actual delivery of the shock to Defib. There is some activity lately trying to standardize the terms to reduce confusion like this. This is often the issue when you are communicating with people from other places/countries around the world. :doh: In Canada we always referred to it as an AED then I had to change what I called it to match local/company terminology here. Now they are talking about changing it Please bear with me and read my posts accordingly:blinking:

I don't believe it would be possible to purchase a non automatic defibulator except for hospital use. Even the system we had in the ambulance was "Automatic" in that the Analize process was managed by the internal computer ... the over-ride only allowed us to up the number of Kilojoules delivered during shocking even that was limited by the machine and our protocols. I have been out of the ambulance service long enough that I can not tell you about specifics of their equipment now. I would actually be surprised if it wasn't "automatic" in terms of the analysis to determine if the machine should built up a charge to make it possible to deliver a shock to defibulate.

The AED's here will not allow you to defibulate a casualty who is not in a shockable rhythm.

 

[funrecdiver]

Thanks for the semantic clarification. It's great that we are all on the "same page", as they say.

When I breach this topic with dive center operators, most seem to justify not having an AED on board for one reason or another.

When in a rescue training class the other day, the scenario was an unresponsive lost buddy. I took a compass bearing in the direction the buddy indicated was the last sighting and swam underwater around 100 meters and got lucky and found the "victim object" quickly and got them up to the surface. I think it would have been difficult to accomplish this and get the victim on the boat in time to insure no brain damage even when search and recovery goes well (lucky and fast)... but with the price of AEDs now not cost prohibitive, a strong argument could be made that the chance of saving even one life outweights the additional cost for DCs. Of course, if that person is your friend or loved one, $1500 to $2000 USD seems very triviaL

It would be good if _one_ DC in Thailand would stand up and lead by example.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Yep I hear all kinds of excuses... I like to turn it around on the boss type penny pinchers and say... "Aren't you The person under more stress than anyone and therefor at high risk of needing this equipment yourself?" Another concern expressed is "What if someone makes a mistake? We are worried about legal implications" Well think of the legal implications if someone dies on your watch and the loved ones find out they could have been saved if you had this equipment? Where do you think you would stand legally then?"

Honestly it seems to me that a lot of the people who can afford the time and cost of holidays on Livaboards are in an age bracket where previous medical problems are likely to occurr. AED's and O2 equipment could be a big selling point for these people!

Jacuzzi on board or AED I know which boat I would take!

 

[Quero]

I also remain puzzled why AED is taught as a key ABCDS element of EFR and why the EFR course for PADI Rescue and above is required AND at rhe same time, we have yet to identify a dive boat with an AED that could be used in an actual emergency.

I also understand that teaching AED use is optional in EFR, but AED is still taught as the key D in the ABCDS of the EFR management cycle.

Because EFR is meant to be applicable to any CPR or First Aid scenario, not exclusively diving accidents. Presumably, if you are EFR certified and you see a person become ill or suffer an accident in an airport (for example), you will know what to do, including the "D" bit, particularly since the instructions on AED machines are so clear that even people who have never actually used one in a training situation should be able to manage it.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Here is another area in need of education. People need to understand in the public domain that if there is a AED and someone collapsed they don't have to wait for a trained first aider to get it and use it. They are in the public domain here for use for everyone but we are not getting the message out so delays that could be avoided are still happening! We need to get that message out somehow.

That is why the company I work for does a "demo" of an AED with every class we teach even if it doesn't include teaching AED.

I think the more people hear about them.. the more they are likely to expect and demand they are available not only in public places but also private places like Dive Boats and Clubs!

 

[funrecdiver]

Because EFR is meant to be applicable to any CPR or First Aid scenario, not exclusively diving accidents. Presumably, if you are EFR certified and you see a person become ill or suffer an accident in an airport (for example), you will know what to do, including the "D" bit, particularly since the instructions on AED machines are so clear that even people who have never actually used one in a training situation should be able to manage it.

Huh?

What AED machines? There does not seem to be a dive boat with one on board in Thailand.

Do you have one on board your dive boat?

 

[Quero]

Huh?

What AED machines? There does not seem to be a dive boat with one on board in Thailand.

Do you have one on board your dive boat?

Any AED machines that might be found anywhere. The EFR course has global standards, and just because AEDs are rare in Thailand doesn't mean the course should exclude any mention of them.

You asked:

I also remain puzzled why AED is taught as a key ABCDS element of EFR

And the answer is because it's meant to provide training for a broader range of accident/illness situations than exclusively dive-related ones. Even if the EFR course doesn't contain an AED element to it, the AED in itself is simple to operate and no training is actually required to use the machine correctly. Therefore, the D is taught as part of the ABCDS sequence. Leaving it out only because we don't see them here outside of medical settings such as ambulances would be a gross omission.

You also asked:

why the EFR course for PADI Rescue and above is required

And while I didn't answer that specifically, the answer is that this course is NOT required for Rescue Diver and above. What is required is recent training in CPR and First Aid. I generally recommend to my own students that they seek training from somebody like bowlofpetunias who has worked on an ambulance service and has extensive first-hand experience in performing the techniques taught in the courses. We can accept any recognized CPR/First Aid training as long as it confers certification. (What we can't accept is somebody getting trained by their buddy who is/was maybe a paramedic or a fireman or a police officer or a ski patroller or a lifeguard but who is not actually certified to teach CPR/First Aid.) In other words, if you were to go to the Red Cross and get your training and you weren't even shown an AED, you'd still be able to become a rescue diver.

I wasn't addressing the boat question, and I don't have a boat here.