Dive buddy for air? No thanks.

[dumpsterDiver]

Thanks for the response.

The question I have is why do we rely on another diver for the most important piece of support gear? Is it because thats how its always been done it?

In my previous professional life many of the questions that start with "why" are answered that way. It works but its not the best way to approach a challenging question.

If the standard was for each diver to have redundant air and someone had the idea to rely on the "buddy" system instead what kind of response would the diving community have?

I find this simple question very interesting. I think in the past (20-30) yrs ago, the average diver dove more, had more skills and was probably better trained (IN GENERAL).

For people that are reasonably skilled AND have the discipline (and luxury) to dive with a good buddy who will stay very close by their side, then the buddy's air was (and is)a reasonable option.

My personal opinion is that all recreational divers below 60 feet should have an independent air source (such as a pony bottle). Very small 6 cu-ft pony bottles have minimal cost, minimal drag and can get a diver to the surface in 2 -3 minutes from moderate recreational depths. Some people will accept slightly more drag and weight and use a larger bottle, but the arguments against a pony bottle (if used in a responsible manner), always seem very shallow to me.

A Pony is good, cheap insurance and as training gets "more streamlined", I think the need for them increases.

 

[String]

I would like to know a little more about your configuration, if you don't mind.

Independent twins are quite common here and lots of cave divers use them as well. There is no manifold and no connection between them. You have 2 tanks, each has 1 reg, 1 SPG and 1 inflation hose (1 tank does wing, other tank does drysuit).

to use them you simply breathe some gas (typically 30 bar) from one tank, switch regs, breathe 30 bar from the other and repeat.

Gas planning is different from manifolds but it does mean you don't have to do shutdowns at all (whereas if on manifolds and you fail to do a shutdown you can lose ALL your gas).

Its a different but fairly common configuration. Also means you can do it when on holidays by just renting 2 tanks and using cam strap bands etc.

 

[wedivebc]

Independent twins are quite common here and lots of cave divers use them as well. There is no manifold and no connection between them. You have 2 tanks, each has 1 reg, 1 SPG and 1 inflation hose (1 tank does wing, other tank does drysuit).

to use them you simply breathe some gas (typically 30 bar) from one tank, switch regs, breathe 30 bar from the other and repeat.

Gas planning is different from manifolds but it does mean you don't have to do shutdowns at all (whereas if on manifolds and you fail to do a shutdown you can lose ALL your gas).

Its a different but fairly common configuration. Also means you can do it when on holidays by just renting 2 tanks and using cam strap bands etc.

The great thing about independants is no single failure can leave you without air. If you dive thirds, ie 1/3 left tank 1/3 right tank, turn dive 1/3 right tank 1/3 left end dive then you will always have enough gas to get home with only 2 reg switches.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

as others have said, most all of the out of air emergencies are caused by diver error, NOT gear failure. If this is not uncommon and results in fatalities on a regular basis, why should we assume that the OTHER buddy has not also run his tank way down as well?

I had an incident when my friend and I were diving a very loose buddy system while spearing fish. He came flying up to me, signaling for air and he used my octopus. As we immediately began our ascent from around 90 feet, I checked my air and was comforted to know I had about 900 lbs in an 80 tank.

We made a controlled ascent with no stops. I was very calm and breathing slowly and he never did slow his frantic breathing. I kinda thought it was funny that his eyes were bugging out so far and that he screwed up so badly. By the time we hit the surface, I was amazed to find my tank on "E". I couldn't believe that he could suck that much air in his borderline panic mode. This incident taught me a lot about how dangerous a buddy is and that you need to reserve a lot more air if you dive with other people and no pony bottle.

My point is that if divers are so badly trained (or disciplined) that they will suck their own tanks dry on the bottom, how is it reasonable to assume that they will be watching the other guy's tank also? For people that have a tendency to run out of air, depending on the buddy system for redundancy seems ridiculous. For these types of people, the buddy system seems worhtless, at best.

The other point is that, if neither diver is carrying their own redundancy, then they have to reserve a LOT more air in their primary tank to help their idiot" buddy get to the surface (as in my example). I personally would rather resrve ONLY enough gas in the primary tank for me (and me alone) to ascend and assume that if problems develop, then either diver can use their own pony as a source to ascend. This is for recreational type dives, of course.

 

[simcoediver]

I find this simple question very interesting. I think in the past (20-30) yrs ago, the average diver dove more, had more skills and was probably better trained (IN GENERAL).

For people that are reasonably skilled AND have the discipline (and luxury) to dive with a good buddy who will stay very close by their side, then the buddy's air was (and is)a reasonable option.

My personal opinion is that all recreational divers below 60 feet should have an independent air source (such as a pony bottle). Very small 6 cu-ft pony bottles have minimal cost, minimal drag and can get a diver to the surface in 2 -3 minutes from moderate recreational depths. Some people will accept slightly more drag and weight and use a larger bottle, but the arguments against a pony bottle (if used in a responsible manner), always seem very shallow to me.

A Pony is good, cheap insurance and as training gets "more streamlined", I think the need for them increases.

Dumpster Diver, A 6 cu tank is a little too small . it might be ok from a 60 foot depth but suppose you are at 120 ft ? if you are at 120 ft and nearing the end of your NDL you really need to do that safety stop at 15 ft. And you need a lot more than 2-3 minutes to do your ascent safely.Do you agree?

 

[highlandfarmwv]

1. Surprising that so many would put their lives in a buddy's hands so trustingly (probably those same ones that thinks the government will save them...).
2. I don't want a buddy hovering within arms length of me when I'm taking photos. (or any time).
3. I don't want to cut my dive short or miss exploring something interesting because buddy can't.
4. My attention wanders, so I don't want to be responsible for someone else's safely. I'll be glad to help you out if I can, but I don't want to spend the whole dive worrying about your air, etc.
5. I don't want to be a burden on someone else's dive if situation was reversed.
6. I want to be responsible for myself and my buddy to be responsible for him/herself. I don't go under the water to be sociable--that can come after the dive!

Signed,
World's Worst Selfish Non-Buddy

 

[String]

Good sensible buddy brief:

"If help is needed i will TRY to assist. However, do NOT rely on me to get you out of trouble and i am not relying on you to get me out of trouble".

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Dumpster Diver, A 6 cu tank is a little too small . it might be ok from a 60 foot depth but suppose you are at 120 ft ? if you are at 120 ft and nearing the end of your NDL you really need to do that safety stop at 15 ft. And you need a lot more than 2-3 minutes to do your ascent safely.Do you agree?

For me, no. I dive 135 solo with a 6 cu-ft tank. I also usually dive with large single steel tanks 125-150 cu-ft which are damn heavy and present a considerable risk of hurting my back. So every extra pound really does matter to me. When I use an al 80, I often grab a 13 cu-ft pony.

A 6 cu-ft tank is so small that I can't tell it is there. I freedive to around 80 feet sometimes (with no tank), so I feel pretty confident that I can make a direct (but expedited) ascent from 130 on the tiny tank.

I've considered it carefully and recognize that I may well be air starved for a portion of the ascent, but I am hoping I can ride a bouyant BC, relax and concentrate on slow deep breaths that will keep me alive. I have allocated myself ZERO time on the bottom to address emergencies with this configuration. I would plan on stopping at 20-25 feet until the tank is dry and then ascend slowly from there on my last breath if there is no air in the main tank.

I also very rarely will dive on a boat without oxygen, so I am hoping that if I am bent from a too fast an ascent, then I will be able to fix it. Maybe this is not considered "safe", but I am willing to accept the risk. To be honest, I feel more confident when wearing the 13 cu-ft on those types of dives.

To me, the diver first needs to decide to use a pony, then they can pick the one which matches their own risk/reward criteria.

 

[rstofer]

My point is that if divers are so badly trained (or disciplined) that they will suck their own tanks dry on the bottom, how is it reasonable to assume that they will be watching the other guy's tank also? For people that have a tendency to run out of air, depending on the buddy system for redundancy seems ridiculous. For these types of people, the buddy system seems worhtless, at best.

Darwin had a theory about this! It's ok! The gene pool needs cleaning from time to time.

It's really as simple as understanding that if you run out of air, you die. Really! It just that simple!

So, if you don't want to die, watch your SPG. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for getting to an OOA condition.

I don't think it could possibly be a matter of training. I think most every agency points out that, to live underwater, you need to breathe air. And, for our purposes, we need to bring the air with us. I'm also fairly certain the agencies point out how bad things will get if we run out of air. In fact, most teach that CESA procedure. True, it's probably only useful from 30 or 40' but it is taught. It's not like divers aren't warned that running out of air is a bad thing.

Divers are also taught how to read an SPG! It isn't hard. When the big hand gets to the red band, bad things are about to happen. Pretty simple! In fact, knowing that the big hand is even approaching the red band should be a hint that it's time to make some changes. Like ascending...

In the end, it is carelessness or entrapment. So, stay clear of entrapment and watch the SPG. Like a hawk...

Richard

 

[DiverBizz]

The owner of the LDS suggested I get a 19cf pony and have not been sorry. He suggested that if someone came up to me in an OOA situation just unclip the pony and hand it to them. This lessens the chance of someone pulling me up with them in a panic. There have been a few times I have come across another diver (no buddy) at depth who did not look like they were monitoring anything on their dive. I just like the pony in case I need it or if a buddy or another diver.