LACounty4806:MikeFerrara:
Maybe true. But it has gotten some to question the quality of the training they get. I really don't care to change the industry really. I mostly just want to help educate the few who are interested. The industry will go along crawling on the bottom in the latest model gizmo equipment.
I can't comment on Zale Parry's skill as an instructor. Maybe she would like to come here and discuss training methods. What does hard hat diving have to do with what we do in the water?
That's why I give specific examples of what I see in the water. I invite you to comment on those examples. Descriptions of what I see is objective while my explaination for the cause may be subjective. I also suggested that rather than fatality counts we evaluate diver skill and I proposed a definition of skill for the purposes of discussion. So far you have declined.
I am aware that the industry uses fatality counts to measure the effectiveness of their training. If they used the ability of their divers to stay off the bottom or any one of many quanifyable skill measures, they'd have to admit that they were clueless.
Again with the sarcasm. I asked you to comment on the configuration because I often see students with dangling equipment. However, I don't often get the chance to discuss it with their instructor. As I read the standards of the two agencies that I teach for streamlined equipment is a requirement. While that's a little vague, it would seem to me that dangling alternates and gauges are a violation of standards or at least a violation of the intent of the standards. More specifically, why is it permitted?
As an instructor I must teach many things that one could argue is subjective. Certainly an argument can be made that an alternate that can't be found can't be donated quickly. Clearly equipment configuration effects our ability to respond to problems and the specific procedures used. It also has effect on balnce and trim. I've asked what you teach in that regard. So far you have only said "flexibility".
Why am I not surprised at instructors practicing their craft while firmly planted on the bottom. My staff never gets on the bottom unless they are standing in shallow water. All skills are demonstrated while off the bottom and horizontal. The theory there is to set an example from the start. It works for us. The objective end result is that in OW my classes don't silt out the dive site and buddy teams stay together easily because they are in control of their position in the water. So far my subjective opinion is that you are unwilling to discuss such aspects of dive training though.
It looked to me like one of the divers is firmly planted on the bottom in that picture. A gear exchange is fun and may build confidence but doesn't do anything to teach technique. Good technique and a lack of dependence on the bottom also builds confidence. I'm not a web site designer either but I would use a picture of a '"do" rather than a "don't". In other words I would use no picture before using that one. Don't they have any pictures of good form in the water?
Do I get paid? I charge a fee for teaching. I am however many many thousands of dollars in the hole. I will never make back even a small fraction of what I've spent. I also will never get paid for the thousands of hours and the effort I've expended. My staff doesn't get paid, although I try to help with some of their expenses.
I'm not questioning your intentions or motivations but rather the methods and the results. Certainly we are all fair game in that regard. If you put it in public then it can be commented on in public
You haven't been paying attention. As of the first of next month I will no longer be a renewed PADI member. I am voting with my feet and my dollars. I have tried to change things from the inside. PADI is unwilling to discuss this as you are. They did send me a wall certificate for certifying over 100 students in a year though. They have made it clear that numbers are what concerns them and that the skill of the divers holding a PADI card is not.
You're correct. I don't know what's in your standards. I have asked specific question, though, that could have been answered with quotes from your standards. You have declined to answer those questions with anything of substance. The picture is all I have to go on. I haven't made up my mind about anything. Based on what I saw (the picture) and what you've said I have asked questions. You seem to object to that. Some of these questions, BTW, are the very same question that I recommend divers ask of a potential instructor when looking for a class. How would you answer a well informed prospective student who asked these questions? Would you belittle them for questioning your program?"No need to refer to me as an expert even sarcastically just take a stab at my questions. You want to focus on my qualifications to question the standard. I think any one who holds a card is qualified to do that. My cridentials are humble and I'm not famous and never will be. I'm a PADI instructor, IANTD instructor, cave trained and trimix trained. I guess I could fill a fair sized box full of mostly useless cards. I have spent enough and risked enough to have earned the right to comment and ask questions".
I promise I will never refer to you as an expert. On that we can agree.
I feel better already.
Again you insult me rather than discuss the nuts and bolts of dive training. If that makes you feel better ok.
Well my un-expert opinion is that based on your response to specific questions combined with the depiction of poor diving technique that is on your web site I wouldn't refer to you (your program) as expert either.
You seem to suggest that because you list some big names and have an old program that it must be good and beyond question. Your only additional point is that the death count is low.
I am questioning your standards. I am questioning the standards of the agencies who derived theirs from yours. I encourage others to question them also. You don't seem to like that. Why?
Dive Agencies PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, YMCA, ACUC, CMAS
- Thread starter GDI
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A small sample of dive training mechanics....
PADI standards require a 1 minute motionless hover in confine water module 4 (out of 5) They also require a 30 yard neutral swim in confined module 3.
EDIT...The above is a typo. The neutral swim requirement is 10 yards (30 ft). I misremebered since we do it for hours not feet.
In 3 out of 4 open water dives buoyancy control is not mentioned at all in the performance requirements other than the student must get neutral some time during dive 4. It used to be a 1 minute motionless hover but that's been changed.
A student can literally walk on the bottom during OW dives and meet the requirements.
It is not required that a student understand or demonstrate proper trim. The demonstration of buddy skills is not in any way required in a diving context (tour portion of the training dives)
It is not required that any skills like mask clearing or free flow management be demonstrated midwater at any time in training including at the instructor level. Yet in actual application these things typically need to be done midwater unless we're on the bottom to start with.
Buoyancy control is intrduced in training as though it were an after thought. The largest portion of many classes is taught as though the bc had not yet been invented. Indeed large portion of the performance requirements can be met without even having a bc.
Some have called this the lost art of diving. I disagree. I say that buoyancy control has not yet been introduced into training requirementsin a meaningful way.
According to DAN buoyancy control problems are reported on a large percentage of dives that result in injury. Rapid ascents also show up in a significant number of accidents.
From accident reports we also see that most divers who die are alone when they die. Buddy seperation?
Do we see quarries silted out 1/2 hour into a diving day?
Do we see any potential connection between the training standards and accident reports?
Here I have stated a summary of buoyancy control standards requirements. I can list actual quotes if some one wants. I have also referenced the DAN reports. What isn't in the DAN report is the number of buoyancy control problems and rapid ascents that don't result in injury. The evidence that training is good is the number of deaths that DAN reports (100ish) and the number of injuries (1000ish).
Maybe as a side project I'll do a study like a fish count. Only instead of counting fish we'll measure visability at dive sited before they're open and after and correlate that to the number of divers in the water. Maybe we'll count the number of observed divers and document their attitude in the water and their proximity to the bottom.
We can count the number of uncontrolled ascents due to things like reg free flows in a day at a place like Gilboa quarry and correlate that to the number of divers signed in.
Do you think the agencies would speak to their standards in relation to those statistics? If it were me and I was interested in quality I would.
My hypotheses is that diving technique is poor in the general population because we teach it poorly.
Additionally that common problems like free flows often result in rapid ascents because divers are never taught to manage them midwater. Here I propose a simple study. A random sampling of divers asked to simulate a free flow and we simply measure their depth change. We would do the same with mask replacement and air sharing. Although, gathering numbers is a formality because I often have potential students do this as part of a skill assesment and they are usually unable to maintain depth.
Of course it would be much easier for the agency rep to spend a few days at dive sites evaluating things for themselves and looking for ways to make training more effective instead of visiting dive shops trying to sell new products.
Dive training is good enough if our only measure is deaths and we don't need those 100 people.
LAcounty,
If we tested 30 of your OW entry level grads, advanced grads and instructor grads by asking each group to demonstrate some of the above mentioned skills midwater, what yould your estimate of the mean, max, min and standard deviation of the change in depth and attitude be?
How do you think the groups would compare to each other.
How would you expect them to compare to the students of other agencies.
If I design a study using valid statistical methods of measurement and analysis, would LA county participate by recording the measures on students at the conclusion of each class.
Any one want to help? Maybe a 1 year study. Maybe we could get some one like Curt Bowen of Advanced Diver Magazine to publish the results.
My guess is that we'd have to rely on samplings of volunteers at dive site because I don't think agencies, shops or instructors will be willing to participate. I also predict poor results and that the agencies will blame the student and againn refer to the low death toll and continue to rely on the liability releases.
Consider it a challenge.
PADI standards require a 1 minute motionless hover in confine water module 4 (out of 5) They also require a 30 yard neutral swim in confined module 3.
EDIT...The above is a typo. The neutral swim requirement is 10 yards (30 ft). I misremebered since we do it for hours not feet.
In 3 out of 4 open water dives buoyancy control is not mentioned at all in the performance requirements other than the student must get neutral some time during dive 4. It used to be a 1 minute motionless hover but that's been changed.
A student can literally walk on the bottom during OW dives and meet the requirements.
It is not required that a student understand or demonstrate proper trim. The demonstration of buddy skills is not in any way required in a diving context (tour portion of the training dives)
It is not required that any skills like mask clearing or free flow management be demonstrated midwater at any time in training including at the instructor level. Yet in actual application these things typically need to be done midwater unless we're on the bottom to start with.
Buoyancy control is intrduced in training as though it were an after thought. The largest portion of many classes is taught as though the bc had not yet been invented. Indeed large portion of the performance requirements can be met without even having a bc.
Some have called this the lost art of diving. I disagree. I say that buoyancy control has not yet been introduced into training requirementsin a meaningful way.
According to DAN buoyancy control problems are reported on a large percentage of dives that result in injury. Rapid ascents also show up in a significant number of accidents.
From accident reports we also see that most divers who die are alone when they die. Buddy seperation?
Do we see quarries silted out 1/2 hour into a diving day?
Do we see any potential connection between the training standards and accident reports?
Here I have stated a summary of buoyancy control standards requirements. I can list actual quotes if some one wants. I have also referenced the DAN reports. What isn't in the DAN report is the number of buoyancy control problems and rapid ascents that don't result in injury. The evidence that training is good is the number of deaths that DAN reports (100ish) and the number of injuries (1000ish).
Maybe as a side project I'll do a study like a fish count. Only instead of counting fish we'll measure visability at dive sited before they're open and after and correlate that to the number of divers in the water. Maybe we'll count the number of observed divers and document their attitude in the water and their proximity to the bottom.
We can count the number of uncontrolled ascents due to things like reg free flows in a day at a place like Gilboa quarry and correlate that to the number of divers signed in.
Do you think the agencies would speak to their standards in relation to those statistics? If it were me and I was interested in quality I would.
My hypotheses is that diving technique is poor in the general population because we teach it poorly.
Additionally that common problems like free flows often result in rapid ascents because divers are never taught to manage them midwater. Here I propose a simple study. A random sampling of divers asked to simulate a free flow and we simply measure their depth change. We would do the same with mask replacement and air sharing. Although, gathering numbers is a formality because I often have potential students do this as part of a skill assesment and they are usually unable to maintain depth.
Of course it would be much easier for the agency rep to spend a few days at dive sites evaluating things for themselves and looking for ways to make training more effective instead of visiting dive shops trying to sell new products.
Dive training is good enough if our only measure is deaths and we don't need those 100 people.
LAcounty,
If we tested 30 of your OW entry level grads, advanced grads and instructor grads by asking each group to demonstrate some of the above mentioned skills midwater, what yould your estimate of the mean, max, min and standard deviation of the change in depth and attitude be?
How do you think the groups would compare to each other.
How would you expect them to compare to the students of other agencies.
If I design a study using valid statistical methods of measurement and analysis, would LA county participate by recording the measures on students at the conclusion of each class.
Any one want to help? Maybe a 1 year study. Maybe we could get some one like Curt Bowen of Advanced Diver Magazine to publish the results.
My guess is that we'd have to rely on samplings of volunteers at dive site because I don't think agencies, shops or instructors will be willing to participate. I also predict poor results and that the agencies will blame the student and againn refer to the low death toll and continue to rely on the liability releases.
Consider it a challenge.
Sounds like a challenge to me, but one that is requesting a somewhat different response......
I haven't forgotten our phone conversation Mike.... working on it, even while travelling and enjoying things (and even doing some diving!)
BTW, I saw two (!) rapid ascents in The Epcot Living Seas Aquarium yesterday (I was diving there with my g/f's daughter as her birthday present from me.) What, pray tell, could possibly happen in a 20' aquarium with 200'+ of vis that would call for THAT?!
I haven't forgotten our phone conversation Mike.... working on it, even while travelling and enjoying things (and even doing some diving!)
BTW, I saw two (!) rapid ascents in The Epcot Living Seas Aquarium yesterday (I was diving there with my g/f's daughter as her birthday present from me.) What, pray tell, could possibly happen in a 20' aquarium with 200'+ of vis that would call for THAT?!
Scott M
Contributor
Genesis:
The line to the test track ride opened up. :icosm01:
dbulmer
Contributor
MikeF,
I'd find it perplexing, to say the least, that instructors would not be able to perform the tests you suggested. Have you actually seen instructors incapable of exchanging air, mask removal etc in midwater? And I assume you mean in a horizontal rather than vertical position?
I'd find it perplexing, to say the least, that instructors would not be able to perform the tests you suggested. Have you actually seen instructors incapable of exchanging air, mask removal etc in midwater? And I assume you mean in a horizontal rather than vertical position?
LACounty4806
Contributor
MikeFerrara:
It's a good challenge. Put it together and I'll submit it to the board. You probably should include a cross section of divers from different parts of the country or you wont get the results youre fishing for. I have a better idea though. Why not cross-over to LA County and do it yourself. I'll give you the standards of what is required and you can jump right in when the time comes. It'll probably only cost you about $250 dollars for everything involved (we figure the costs on an annual basis). If you have a 4th edition NOAA manual, you're already ahead of the game on training materials.
This is all you need to do to come on board as a cross-over:
1. Attend the first day of UICC. Bring complete paperwork and sit in on the history of LA County and diving lecture by Nick Icorn and the Physiology of Diving lecture by Glenn Egstrom. Piece of cake there.
2. Complete on the second day all the swimming and skills test as required which are:
-400-meter swim within 10 minutes
-75' underwater swim with the retrieval and replacement of a 10 pound weight belt
-50 meter buddy tow, with no aids
-10 minute tread and float
-Skin dive ditch and recovery surface dive and remove masks, fins, and snorkels in 12 feet of water, swim 50 feet underwater, surface, rest one minute, swim back to your gear underwater, replace and surface. Your mask must be clear and you need to clear and take three breaths off the snorkel to complete the exercise without bringing your face out of the water.
-Full Ocean gear bail-out at instructor quality level.
-300-yard snorkel swim immediately following bail out carrying an extra 10 pounds and without the use of added buoyancy.
-50 meter buddy breathing with no mask.
Now we give you a lot of credit for being an instructor already so you only have to complete the following teaching requirements:
-30 minute lecture - topic of your choice graded based upon guidelines introduced the first day. You can talk about decompression theory and dazzle us with anything but Haldanian models.
-1 pool teach and bottom check a complete session of our choice
-1 Ocean teach and bottom check with beach entry - a complete session of our choice
-Participate in 2 pool training sessions and participate in circuits (circuits are a 1000-meter conditioning exercise developed by the kineseology department of UCLA using scuba-specific skills to maximize conditioning. They are an important part of our training program)
-Participate in 1 additional ocean session and boat dive. On the boat dive, youll need to do a full scuba ditch and recovery from 30 feet, a weight belt ditch and recovery on skin from 20 feet, and a full ocean rescue from the bottom to the back to the boat. A minimum of 50 yards and victim being brought back on board completes the requirements.
-Student registration and form filing class (ah paperwork!)
And then to finish, you can attend our weekend of training at Scripps Institute at UCSD with the staff there.
It's all pass/fail so either you do everything or you get credit for nothing. No ambiguity at all. Oh yes, and it must all be done with demonstration quality. Subjective I know in that regard but we like to raise the bar.
I know its a lot of waterwork but we really stress it here. Thats how we train divers btw. Our programs are designed to create drown proof divers who can deal with the conditions specific to diving in the Pacific and aren't slaves to their gear. We do teach good gear alignment and trim though we want to make sure you can really swim and arent an out of shape goo who has to rescued by their own students from the surf. If you come to extra sessions, we can show you how to teach beach entries as well. Not sure when youd use them at the quarry but they are a major part of the diving here in Los Angeles County. Lucky for you, youre already an instructor. Our candidates go through 14 weeks of this training, including lectures and practice prior to becoming instructor. Best part is, we do it in the winter when you arent teaching classes so you arent missing anything. Conditions may be rough but we get our training in. We also explain why they shouldn't do that with their own students. After youre done, you can do a crossover to NAUI or the YMCA. We are fortunate that we have a dry crossover arrangement with both because it is recognized by most major agencies that our standards either meet or exceed their standards. No other agency has that arrangement.
Hey, if you cant make it, why not send your DMs? They could probably use the ocean work after being cramped up in those silted quarries. I have no doubt they are proficient pool divers though.
LACounty4806:
Wow, all the quarry digs! Either you don't like them or you're just an insulting sort of person. I'm starting to think that besides not wanting to discuss dive training that you're just not a nice person.
Actually we only use quarries for training and my DM's are proficient. Every one is also an avid cave diver and all are at least normoxic trimix trained. We don't have your rough and tumble beaches so we have to settle for Great Lakes wrecks and the caves of Missouri for fun. Come join us for a dive some time. I have to warn you though when your back in a cave you are somewhat slave to your equipment and being a good snorkeler won't be of much use. LOL You'll hae to be able to scuba dive.
Thanks for the cross over invitation but I don't get out to LA county enough to make it worth doing. You know, living and working in Indiana and all?
Interesting requirements. Lots of watermenship stuff. That's not a bad thing but when do you make sure an instructor candidate can scuba dive? I mean really, it's a fine thing to make sure an instructor can swim and is good shape but it is scuba diving that we teach right? I didn't see any mention at all of testing scuba diving technique. I would have to practice up on my snorkeling though. We don't get to snorkel much. Our wrecks are too deep and it's a silly thing to try in a cave. I wouldn't want any one who knew me to see me doing it if you know what I mean.
Texas Diver
Contributor
My wife and I are looking to get Nitrox certified. I called around town and PADI requires that we do two dives with them, which means diving in a lake or quarry with about zero visibility - not our idea of a good time.
SSI and NAUI only require classroom work, which seems reasonable to me since we already know how to dive.
Does anyone have an opinion on the best agency for nitrox certification or does it come down to finding the cheapest way to go and/or avoiding the zero vis quarry dives.
Maybe I am about to answer my own question because our preference would be to just get certified on Coz this spring.
SSI and NAUI only require classroom work, which seems reasonable to me since we already know how to dive.
Does anyone have an opinion on the best agency for nitrox certification or does it come down to finding the cheapest way to go and/or avoiding the zero vis quarry dives.
Maybe I am about to answer my own question because our preference would be to just get certified on Coz this spring.
Texas Diver:
I'm not sure what you're asking since you already know how to dive and all. SDI is another one that I don't think requires dives. I make my nitrox students dive because it is a diving certification and I just can't get myself to hand out one without seeing the student in the water. I find that I hate going more than a couple weeks without diving and a little practice doesn't hurt any one even if it's in a quarry.
I don't know about the quarries near you but some have very good vis as long as you can keep your feet out of the bottom.
LACounty4806
Contributor
MikeFerrara:
What does cave and wreck diving have to do with training openwater divers and advanced divers? We're not talking technical diving here. We're talking recreational diving. I talk about training how to really be safe in the water and you bring up normoxic trimix training. I'm sure that's a big help in your classes. It's great but you're really not talking about basic recreational diving and training safer divers are you with that?
Just out of curiousity, are you a cave or a cavern instructor?
Becoming an instructor is about learning how to teach people to dive safely and being able to do so in a safe manner right? Do you train divers that can't swim really? I know that's real popular in the industry. Do you use the gear to make up for their shortcomings in the water? We don't That's the point of our instructor training course. We do have tryouts for the program if that's what you're looking for. We don't take just anybody who wants to cut a check unlike most programs. You need to be able to dive. Scuba and skin. I just made an assumption that you could dive. I would even have loaned you a snorkel. It wouldn't have taken more than a few minutes to explain how it works to you. With charts and graphs of course. LOL.
BTW, the scuba familiarity skills tell a lot about a diver and wether or not they're good in the water.
I glad you agree that instructors should be in shape. Do you have any physical training requirements for your staff or your candidates? I mean with all the physical requirements to do cave diving and wreck diving safely, how do you and they/you keep up the physical conditioning? I think that letting people who are out of shape and can't swim learn to dive is a real problem in diving today.
I love quarries btw. Freshwater diving is good fun. We do some in our programs. We have some great lakes here ourselves. Ocean's more fun though.
As for not wanting to do the crossover, I understand it's lot of work and long way from Indiana. Consider it an open invitation. A trip out to the coast is always good and a chance to get away from the winter. Great diving here as well. I didn't realize you worked btw. I mean with a 7 post average and working as a moderator here, all the cave and wreck diving, how do you fit it in? You must be the great mulit-tasker.
As for me, I'm going diving. The squid are running and I feel like having commercial fishermen drop seal bombs on me.
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