Dive Agencies PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, YMCA, ACUC, CMAS

[LACounty4806]

I'm starting to think that besides not wanting to discuss dive training that you're just not a nice person.

Not true. I want to discuss training. I'd love to hear about your advanced or open classes and what you teach in both. Maybe less negative examples of what other people are doing and more of the positive things you teach. I think it would benefit a lot of people to see how you set up your course and why you do what you do.

Oh, I am nice btw. No question about it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What does cave and wreck diving have to do with training openwater divers and advanced divers? We're not talking technical diving here. We're talking recreational diving. I talk about training how to really be safe in the water and you bring up normoxic trimix training. I'm sure that's a big help in your classes. It's great but you're really not talking about basic recreational diving and training safer divers are you with that?

I mentioned the cave and wreck diving for two reasons. One, because you seemed to be insinuating that we were pool and quarry divers only and didn't see any challenging environments and two because cave divers usually have very good technique. Actually I do find that being a cave and technical diver helps in teaching recreational diving. There are several aspects but one is that I realize the trouble the student will have should they decide to go on to that kind of diving if they didn't get a really solid foundation in the basics in the beginning. I don't promote technical diving but having that background does seem to give us a great appreciation of the importance of having the basics down pat to build on. I didn't really start to learn the finer points of good technique until I got into technical diving. It just wasn't ever taught. I teach it.

Just out of curiousity, are you a cave or a cavern instructor?

I am able to teach the PADI cavern class until my membership runs out at the end of this month. I normally refer divers interested in cave diving to cave instructors, however, and haven't conducted many cavern classes.

Becoming an instructor is about learning how to teach people to dive safely and being able to do so in a safe manner right? Do you train divers that can't swim really? I know that's real popular in the industry. Do you use the gear to make up for their shortcomings in the water? We don't That's the point of our instructor training course.

I require students to swim. When teaching a PADI class I am limited in the watermenship.stamina skills that I can require as you probably know. I believe that a person should be able to swim just to have lunch near a lake incase they fall in. I don't know that a diver needs to be able to swim fast but they should be able to cover enough distance and/or sustain themself well enough to not drown and maybe to help another diver even without the aid of equipment.

We do have tryouts for the program if that's what you're looking for. We don't take just anybody who wants to cut a check unlike most programs. You need to be able to dive. Scuba and skin. I just made an assumption that you could dive. I would even have loaned you a snorkel. It wouldn't have taken more than a few minutes to explain how it works to you. With charts and graphs of course. LOL.

I have snorkels thanks. I'm not exactly sure where they are right now but I have some. I don't train instructors but for the last couple years I haven't marketed DM training. When some one is interested we too do a try out kind of thing and don't take just any one.

BTW, the scuba familiarity skills tell a lot about a diver and wether or not they're good in the water.

I agree as long as it doesn't stop there. Comfort and ability to manage a task near the surface (ditch and don type skills) doesn't always mean the diver has the same ability with other tasks especially at deeper depths.

I glad you agree that instructors should be in shape. Do you have any physical training requirements for your staff or your candidates? I mean with all the physical requirements to do cave diving and wreck diving safely, how do you and they/you keep up the physical conditioning? I think that letting people who are out of shape and can't swim learn to dive is a real problem in diving today.

Me first.
I run in good in weather and use a bike in winter for cardio usually every other day. For strength training I have a routine of pushups, situps, pullups and dips along with some isometric type stuff. I don't really have room for equipment or access to a gym. For the three years that I owned a dive shop I kind of fell off the wagon because of the long hours (full time job in addition to the shop). I've gotten back with it since I closed the shop.

The staff is tougher. Since my DM's are PADI DM's I really don't have a staff after this week I guess. It's hard to dictate what volunteers do at home. They all can swim and did well with the stamina and watermenship skills in their training and can manage their equipment but as far as ensuring the maintenance of those levels it's a weak spot.

IANTD has fitness requirements for anual membership renewal which will help there.

I love quarries btw. Freshwater diving is good fun. We do some in our programs. We have some great lakes here ourselves. Ocean's more fun though.

As for not wanting to do the crossover, I understand it's lot of work and long way from Indiana. Consider it an open invitation. A trip out to the coast is always good and a chance to get away from the winter. Great diving here as well. I didn't realize you worked btw. I mean with a 7 post average and working as a moderator here, all the cave and wreck diving, how do you fit it in? You must be the great mulit-tasker.

As for me, I'm going diving. The squid are running and I feel like having commercial fishermen drop seal bombs on me.

I'm off work for the holidays right now but I spend a lot of time at the computer when I am at work. The mod position is volunteer so you do what you can when you can. I probably spend too much time talking and not enough time working though.

We've had a few weeks off of diving also. I had some large transportation expenses and a few back to back expensive dive trips that I had to recover from. I'll have another few weeks of poverty but we're diving locally this weekend.

I would love to dive the west coast. It just isn't the easiest or cheapest place to get to though.

 

[Michael Schlink]

All divers should realize that they need to keep improving their skills and knowledge. It's easy to blame an agency or instructor but ultimately the individual needs to be responsible for themselves. Most or all the agencies have MINIMUM standards. There has to be a line somewhere. What I see most often is a new diver diving in an environment that they haven't been trained in. How often do we see a diver get certified in a placid shallow quarry somewhere in the states IN PREPERATION for an upcoming caribbean trip, say Cozumel or the Caymans?? I just read in a mag. a story about a lady who didn't want to jump into a drift dive with her BC deflated and she was nervous about making the dive. guess what she made the dive SHE made the decision to jump the dive, shouldn't have , but did, another survivor story. The biggest problem with most Americans today is they want to point the finger somewhere else. If you think your a great diver think again.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm starting to think that besides not wanting to discuss dive training that you're just not a nice person.

Not true. I want to discuss training. I'd love to hear about your advanced or open classes and what you teach in both. Maybe less negative examples of what other people are doing and more of the positive things you teach. I think it would benefit a lot of people to see how you set up your course and why you do what you do.

Oh, I am nice btw. No question about it.

While we're on the subject have you gotten yourself signed up for the instructor to instructor forum here on the board?

I've actually posted a bunch of stuff in the past. This thread probably isn't the place but if you want start a thread and I'll join in. When I get a chance I'll look for some of the old threads and see what kind of shape their in and if they're worth bringing back to life. I don't mind starting over though because it's always changing.

Gotta go do some home stuff for a while.

 

[MikeFerrara]

All divers should realize that they need to keep improving their skills and knowledge. It's easy to blame an agency or instructor but ultimately the individual needs to be responsible for themselves. Most or all the agencies have MINIMUM standards. There has to be a line somewhere. What I see most often is a new diver diving in an environment that they haven't been trained in. How often do we see a diver get certified in a placid shallow quarry somewhere in the states IN PREPERATION for an upcoming caribbean trip, say Cozumel or the Caymans?? I just read in a mag. a story about a lady who didn't want to jump into a drift dive with her BC deflated and she was nervous about making the dive. guess what she made the dive SHE made the decision to jump the dive, shouldn't have , but did, another survivor story. The biggest problem with most Americans today is they want to point the finger somewhere else. If you think your a great diver think again.

Certainly the diver is responsible in the end. The problem is that they don't know what they don't know. It's the instructors job to give them a good start in that department.

As an instructor I'm disapointed in the support I've gotten from the agencies. While they don't prevent a good class from being taught some don't demand it either. In that regard I think the minimums are too minimal.

And you're right. Few instructors teach in a location where they can expose student to all environments. I don't teach drift diving here in the midwest and I certainly make sure my students know that. With the HUGE number of divers that are certified here in the midwest and the large number of divers who go to Cozumel for their first trip, though, I wonder if we're really driving the point home.

I don't recommend Cozumel to new divers unless they are going to do some homework ahead of time to make sure they get on the right dives with an oporation that's prepared to cater to a new diver who is also new to the environment. Some are great and some are, IMO, dangerous. A few phone calls can usually go a long way. The principle is, of course, the same for any destination.

Also, I don't always have a choice but I prefer to train divers who plan to dive often and that usually means local. I guess that some one has to teach the once a year vacation divers but I'd rather it wasn't me. The more interested a student is in diving as apposed to a single vacation the more I enjoy teaching. Since I usually end up spending more on a class than I make I need to enjoy it or there's no reason to do it. It works out better for the student too. It's hard for a diver to keep up skills without diving especially if they don't already have an experience base so the once a year divers scare me and I'd rather not be part of the process.

 

[GDI]

I have seen many different points presented here on this thread. Some fingers pointing at the agencies, some at the retailers and the pressures they put on their instructors and some at the instructors themselves. The industry overall has made the most detrimental impact on the quality of students. Instructors have fallen victim to the pressures of the LDS owners. AND the quality of instructors, and instructor trainers has since fallen off as a result. Poor instructor quality yields bad students/divers.The agencies have attempted to capture the faster pace of life in today's society. Oh yes we want it now, we want it fast and we want it cheap. Everyone here who is an instructor, a retail LDS owner,a manufacturer, we are all to blame. Those who are good instructors and are attempting to step up the standards and produce better safer divers have become that way because they care. They care about the sport, the industry and the future divers. To hold accountable just the agencies is WRONG we need to hold accountable the agencies, the LDS owners, and instructors. We need to do a self check on ourselves as instructors, retailers, the whole industry. We, the instructors do hold the key to change. The LDS needs to realize that the more a customer comes into the shop the higher chance of purchase. You want three day classes then put the emphasis on the customer do not cut back on standards. The agencies need to be more accountable to the liabilities and needs of the instructor. They need to pursue quality assurance in many different forms. Instructors should not fear reprisal for going beyond the minimum standards but should expect reprimands for falling short of standards.
No the instructors are not soley to blame, they have the key to correct things. But we as an industry are to blame. Just my .02 cents on change in thought

 

[MikeFerrara]

GDI,

I think the fast flow of new instructors help take the wind out of the sails of the more experienced instructors who wise up. For every one trying to pull the bar up there are another three new ones trying to pull it down (maybe unknowingly).

If one instructor won't play the shop/agency can just spit out another three or four.

 

[Michael Schlink]

I have always admitted that marketing and the market push things along. For those of us who have been teaching and diving for for more than 10 years it is obvious that the industry is trying evrything they can to get and KEEP people diving. I don't think standards have really changed that much but certainly the training has been broken down to "sub parts" I feel that EVERY diver should go through to Rescue or equivalent before they are allowed to make some of the dives I see divers making! BUT I still believe that burden falls on the individual diver. The numbers prove that MOST divers aren't interested in additional training past OW or AOW. My older brother became a PADI inst. in the very early 70's. What he went through just to be able to start diving would cut out about 80% of the people I see diving. How many divers are overweight, smoke or are out of good physical condition??? Try telling a guy that is 50+ lbs overweight that he can't get on the boat! I can't count how many smokers I've certified that tried to tell me what great shape they are in. The bottom line is if the Agencies and Instructors made it even a little more rigid to get certified you could watch the entire industry implode

 

[MikeFerrara]

I agree that raising the bar could hurt the industry. While I care about diving and divers I don't give two hoots about the industry. I'm not out to create a ton of divers and I'd rather train one really good that a thousand not so good. I don't want big classes and I don't want a new class every week. A couple classes a year will do me just fine because I have other things to do. Somebody has to dive the caves and wrecks you know.

When I had a shop and had to teach to sell enough equipment to keep the manufacturers happy and the bills paid I was not happy.

 

[GDI]

I have always admitted that marketing and the market push things along. For those of us who have been teaching and diving for for more than 10 years it is obvious that the industry is trying evrything they can to get and KEEP people diving. I don't think standards have really changed that much but certainly the training has been broken down to "sub parts" I feel that EVERY diver should go through to Rescue or equivalent before they are allowed to make some of the dives I see divers making! BUT I still believe that burden falls on the individual diver. The numbers prove that MOST divers aren't interested in additional training past OW or AOW. My older brother became a PADI inst. in the very early 70's. What he went through just to be able to start diving would cut out about 80% of the people I see diving. How many divers are overweight, smoke or are out of good physical condition??? Try telling a guy that is 50+ lbs overweight that he can't get on the boat! I can't count how many smokers I've certified that tried to tell me what great shape they are in. The bottom line is if the Agencies and Instructors made it even a little more rigid to get certified you could watch the entire industry implode
From: Mike Ferrara
GDI,

I think the fast flow of new instructors help take the wind out of the sails of the more experienced instructors who wise up. For every one trying to pull the bar up there are another three new ones trying to pull it down (maybe unknowingly).

If one instructor won't play the shop/agency can just spit out another three or four.

I know sad isn't it. It;s a systemic problem
It may take a agency of dedicated people to grow big enough to force this change. GUE has the right idea but still something is missing. Something that will grab the attention of the industry, the entire industry. Something that will force a change in the way the world learns to dive (we know where I borrowed that phrase from) We need a revolution