Dive Agencies PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, YMCA, ACUC, CMAS

[MikeFerrara]

LAcounty,

I checked out your web page. You know the picture on the Advanced Diver Page of all the divers kneeling in a circle with alternates and gauges hanging loose? That's just about what I'm talking about. Would you care to discuss the merits of that equipment configuration?

If they can't afford anything to get that gear under control let me know and I'll donate a box of rubber snorkel keepers and a few feet of rubber tubing and some shock cord. If they don't understand the importance of it let me know and we can go over it.

 

[LACounty4806]

LAcounty,

I don't know where you dive and I don't know how many accidents there are in the worls but I can tell you this. I see a lot of ambulance traffic. I see a lot of rapid ascent's, buddy seperations and the number of rescues and assists I have to my credit is growing quickly. You loose vis at the local site 1/2 hour after they open for business because nobody can stay off the bottom.

The death toll is low because it's very possible to walk around on the bottom for a while and then climb out without any one getting hurt. That is NOT evidence that training is good.

I dived for years before getting certified. I didn't get hurt. That doesn't mean my training was good though because I didn't have any.

Hey, how many here have any of those video's that resorts take and then sell to people? I have some. I use them in class to show students what it looks like when divers bounce off coral with all their equipment dangling.

I love the logic....The death toll is low so training must be good? Let me ask you this...is it low compared to what it should be? How many of those divers would be alive if they had even a passible entry level class. Except for the heart attacks, I'm thinking almost every single one.

Two of the recent ones come to mind. The lady with two buddies who got tangled in kelp 5 ft down and drowned with a full tank on her back and this last guy who couldn't connect his bc hose, had his fins off, had his buddy turn his air off and he sunk and drowned.
Why don't you tell me about their excelant training?

What a joke!

Gee Mike, you think that almost every single diving death outside of heart attacks is preventable by increasing the level of training? So by that logic, no one should have died while diving 20 years ago if they were certified prior to the changing of standards? I hate to break it to you but they did anyway and will continue to regardless.

As for the accidents you refer to, the incident in Nor Cal is one you're refering to I believe and I don't really remembert the details. Maybe it was a training issue there. I can't speak to that. As for the Laguna Beach accident all I'll say is that Daryl Shatz was a good diver and a nice guy and it's really sad. That being said, the final cause of death isn't in yet from Orange County Investigators. You can make your own assumptions and blame agency training because it's convenient but I'll wait for the final report before I make my call. If you want to try to make your point on his death, that's up to you.

I'm not asking for evidence that training is good and I don't think the evidence I presented is conclusive of that anyway. That wasn't really the point. I keep asking for evidence that training is bad. I just want someone to prove it to me and some of the new and impressionable divers who read this and strings like it other boards. You keep presenting vague anecdotal evidence and can't seem to get past it or your own opinions. The joke is when people sit there and try to speak for the entire industry and say "everyone knows this is happening" or " I see this happen every time." It's the chicken-little approach. If you're going to write this sort of stuff on a public board where people are going to read it, try to do it responsibly. Saying "the agencies standards are a joke/the sky is falling" is just a prelude to saying "All your training blows. Buy my class and I'll really teach you how to dive."

 

[LACounty4806]

LAcounty,

I checked out your web page. You know the picture on the Advanced Diver Page of all the divers kneeling in a circle with alternates and gauges hanging loose? That's just about what I'm talking about. Would you care to discuss the merits of that equipment configuration?

If they can't afford anything to get that gear under control let me know and I'll donate a box of rubber snorkel keepers and a few feet of rubber tubing and some shock cord. If they don't understand the importance of it let me know and we can go over it.

Thanks for the offer Mike. It's awfully nice of you. It's funny that you didn't read about what is actually taught in the class or who the lecturers are. You continue to make your little declarations based on any inflamatory thing you can grab on to. I don't think Los Angeles County needs to defend it's standards and procedures to you. 50 years of training speaks for itself. I guess it would be easier if I just put it your own words. It's "excelant" training. BTW, who got you to go back to your post and use spell check. It pays to be a moderator. What other post's do you change after the fact?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks for the offer Mike. It's awfully nice of you. It's funny that you didn't read about what is actually taught in the class or who the lecturers are. You continue to make your little declarations based on any inflamatory thing you can grab on to. I don't think Los Angeles County needs to defend it's standards and procedures to you. 50 years of training speaks for itself. I guess it would be easier if I just put it your own words. It's "excelant" training. BTW, who got you to go back to your post and use spell check. It pays to be a moderator. What other post's do you change after the fact?

We could talk about my poor spelling and typing but it's off topic.

You don't have to defend your standards to me but I hope that you give it some thought anyway. Doing something for a long time doesn't make it work and alternates that you can't find really fast don't work.

I haven't been training divers for 50 years but after only a few hundred students I have noticed that they're taught on the bottom and they stay there. I've also noticed that if they don't practice problem management skills off the bottom where they're needed they won't be able to manage a problem when they need to.

You know what they say. A picture is worth a thousand words. I didn't put that picture on they're site, they did. That picture tells me that after 50 years they still haven't figured out how to streamline a rig, share air or use a BC.

IMO, there isn't any reason for a diver in an advanced program to be on the bottom of a pool ever for anything. I will go back and see who the lecturers are though.

I went back in to edit the post moments after I posted it. You can do that too if you want. I think you have 60 minutes. Sorry I'm not the best speller and my typing is worse. I have to look at the keyboar while I type so I miss things when I'm in a hurry. You won't talk about your ideas on training but you have the nerve to accuse me of changing other peoples posts? BTW, Mods don't mod threads that we're active in. Grasp at something else.

 

[LACounty4806]

We could talk about my poor spelling and typing but it's off topic.

You don't have to defend your standards to me but I hope that you give it some thought anyway. Doing something for a long time doesn't make it work and alternates that you can't find really fast don't work.

I haven't been training divers for 50 years but after only a few hundred students I have noticed that they're taught on the bottom and they stay there. I've also noticed that if they don't practice problem management skills off the bottom where they're needed they won't be able to manage a problem when they need to.

You know what they say. A picture is worth a thousand words. I didn't put that picture on they're site, they did. That picture tells me that after 50 years they still haven't figured out how to streamline a rig, share air or use a BC.

IMO, there isn't any reason for a diver in an advanced program to be on the bottom of a pool ever for anything. I will go back and see who the lecturers are though.

I went back in to edit the post moments after I posted it. You can do that too if you want. I think you have 60 minutes. Sorry I'm not the best speller and my typing is worse. I have to look at the keyboar while I type so I miss things when I'm in a hurry. You won't talk about your ideas on training but you have the nerve to accuse me of changing other peoples posts? BTW, Mods don't mod threads that we're active in. Grasp at something else.

What are words worth?

“My wife's been pestering me to start my own agency. That sounds like a way to loose even more money than I did with the shop.”

On other peoples backs of course.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What are words worth?

“My wife's been pestering me to start my own agency. That sounds like a way to loose even more money than I did with the shop.”

On other peoples backs of course.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Other peoples backs?
Please explain.

All I found in regard to LA county lecturers is this...

Motivation! Our courses are staffed by volunteers who are dedicated to providing the best scuba related training and information in the country. Our Advanced Diver Programs and Underwater Instructor Certification Courses include lectures given by top experts in the scuba industry.

Who? Who says they're top experts?

The site also says this...

Why learn with us?
Experience! Our history began in 1954. Los Angeles County Parks and Recreation created the first recreational scuba diving certification course in this country.

Because it's old. That's a good reason.

And this...

Quality! Our programs continue to set the standards for instruction throughout the scuba diving industry.

How is LA County setting the standards for the rest of the industry? If it's true,though, that would suggest that if you get your divers off the bottom and streighten up their equipment the other agencies will follow. I'm talking to the right guy then.

Do you want to talk dive training or just keep trying to insult me personally? What do you think I'm going to do ? Start balling and turn off my computer? I talk about how I teach and why?. Why are you afraid to talk about how you teach and why? So far your only supporting statement seems to be that the death toll isn't too high.

 

[LACounty4806]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Other peoples backs?
Please explain.

Sure. You can't give any real evidence to support your position as someone who is qualified to pronounce the industry standards as unsafe, so you bandy about dead divers and how poor training killed them. You're selling something, not helping to explain what's really going on.

All I found in regard to LA county lecturers is this...



Who? Who says they're top experts?

You know Mike, you're right. the sight is kinda weak. It doesn't feature the information on who the lectureres and staff were at the last ADP. I would think they'd do a better job of letting people know that Glen Egstrom, Nick Icorn, Jeff Bozanik, Jim Stewart, Karl Huggins, and quite a few others were either lecturers or staff for it. They have pretty good credentials and would be considered top experts I believe. Who were the people who helped staff your last advanced program? I think the roster of LA County instructors is pretty good. Ed Cargile, Paul Tizmoulis, Al Tillman, ER Cross, Zale Parry, Dick Anderson, Bev Morgan, and a few hundred others like them.


And this...

How is LA County setting the standards for the rest of the industry? If it's true,though, that would suggest that if you get your divers off the bottom and streighten up their equipment the other agencies will follow. I'm talking to the right guy then.

All industry standards are basically derived from the standards established by LA County. That's fairly common knowledge. The book SCUBA America and a few web sights do a nice job of documenting that.

I'll mention your suggestion about equipment btw. We'll jump right on it. I'm glad I found the industry expert on education and training here. Clearly you know more than other people writing the standards. I thought I'd have to look on other boards here but luckily you found me.


While we're at it, I keep asking you to tell me why training's bad with some real evidence. Either you won't or can't. I just keep asking the question and you won't back it up your position with anything better than a boat trip on Lake Michigan. I've got lot's of stories of big boats with 30 -40 divers where everything went right. Doesn't mean much.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Other peoples backs?
Please explain.

Sure. You can't give any real evidence to support your position as someone who is qualified to pronounce the industry standards as unsafe, so you bandy about dead divers and how poor training killed them. You're selling something, not helping to explain what's really going on.[/B]

I have no evidence other than the divers that I've trained and the way that I dive. I can't offer what I don't have. I do, however strongly believe that the divers being put out are poorly trained therefor I say so.

I'm not selling anything at all and in fact I'm trying to get away from teaching. When I do take a student there's certainly no money in it. I don't even know why I'm so interested in this. I have everything I need to dive happy for the rest of my life. I don't need anything from the dive industry yet I feel there are things wrong and I haven't yet been able to walk away from it. I try to explain what's going on, though, and I've devoted a lot of time and energy to it. All I can explain is what I see and the reasons why I think I see it. The only answer I ever get is that the death toll is low.

All I found in regard to LA county lecturers is this...



Who? Who says they're top experts?

You know Mike, you're right. the sight is kinda weak. It doesn't feature the information on who the lectureres and staff were at the last ADP. I would think they'd do a better job of letting people know that Glen Egstrom, Nick Icorn, Jeff Bozanik, Jim Stewart, Karl Huggins, and quite a few others were either lecturers or staff for it. They have pretty good credentials and would be considered top experts I believe. Who were the people who helped staff your last advanced program? I think the roster of LA County instructors is pretty good. Ed Cargile, Paul Tizmoulis, Al Tillman, ER Cross, Zale Parry, Dick Anderson, Bev Morgan, and a few hundred others like them.

I recognize some of the names especially Jeff Bozanik. I am the only one who lecttures in my advanced class or any other class. Although, I try not to teach a traditional advanced open water type class.

My staff is made up of divemasters that I've trained. Students never see them on the bottom and they dive well. You never heard of them though. Certainly none have been in movies like Zale Parry.

And this...

How is LA County setting the standards for the rest of the industry? If it's true,though, that would suggest that if you get your divers off the bottom and streighten up their equipment the other agencies will follow. I'm talking to the right guy then.

All industry standards are basically derived from the standards established by LA County. That's fairly common knowledge. The book SCUBA America and a few web sights do a nice job of documenting that.

I'll mention your suggestion about equipment btw. We'll jump right on it. I'm glad I found the industry expert on education and training here. Clearly you know more than other people writing the standards. I thought I'd have to look on other boards here but luckily you found me.


While we're at it, I keep asking you to tell me why training's bad with some real evidence. Either you won't or can't. I just keep asking the question and you won't back it up your position with anything better than a boat trip on Lake Michigan. I've got lot's of stories of big boats with 30 -40 divers where everything went right. Doesn't mean much.

I have told you why I think mainstream training is bad. I gave specific examples. Isn't the fact that divers are plastered to the bottom enough? Isn't it enough that they can't keep their fins and other body parts from reducing the vis to zero enough? Isn't the fact that we see so many rapid ascents caused by silly little things like free flows enough? Isn't the fact that a dangling alternate does not lend itself to efficient gas sharing when it's needed and instructors are outfiting their divers that way enough? Evidence of that is on your own web site. I see much more of it in the water though. Maybe if you told me what you would consider valid I could do better.

So far all you offer is that not too many die and that it's been done this way for a long time. Can you present evidence that the average diver is diving well. Let's just grade technique and forget deaths. Marketable and survivable isn't the same as good IMO. I already mentioned that I dived for years without training and without injury. That isn't evidence of good training since I had none.

Can you explain why that equipment configuration is the best? Can you explain what it's even acceptable? Can you explain what was going on in the picture I referenced with every one on their knees? Can you explain how practicing on your knees prepares you to dive midwater?

I don't doubt that standards like PADI's are modeled after yours. I find them lacking. I have presented a small fraction of what I've seen and specific questions. Do you have answers to those questions?

No need to refer to me as an expert even sarcastically just take a stab at my questions. You want to focus on my qualifications to question the standard. I think any one who holds a card is qualified to do that. My cridentials are humble and I'm not famous and never will be. I'm a PADI instructor, IANTD instructor, cave trained and trimix trained. I guess I could fill a fair sized box full of mostly useless cards. I have spent enough and risked enough to have earned the right to comment and ask questions.

The first time I had a mask knocked loose by another diver I almost spit my lungs out when I took a big breath to clear it and shot up. You see, until that time I had only done it while solidly planted on the bottom. I think I have the right to question. Do you think we can find some one willing to address the issues I raise?

 

[MikeFerrara]

A list of lecture topics from the LAcounty advanced diver program and a few questions that I have...

Oceanography
Navigation
Rescue
Physics
Physiology
Physical conditioning
Diving equipment
Medical aspects of diving
Marine life identification
Dive planning
Dive tables and computers
Decompression theory
Altitude/Freshwater diving
Search and recovery
Technical diving

Some of these are a little vague so I'll just pick a couple.

Navigation
Do your standards require students to navigate while displaying good technique and mainaining buddy awareness and communication? Good technique being defines as correct trim, no silting and efficient finning technique.

Dive equipment
Do you discuss equipment configuration as it relates to efficient emergency procedures and more basic aspects like streamlining and trim? Do you tie this in to your rescue lecture? Which brings up another point do you get divers balanced and trimmed before blessing them and turning them loose?

Dive planning
Do you address gas management beyond saying "watch your gauge and ascend before you run dry"? What gas management stratagies do you teach?

Dive tables and computers
Decompression theory

RGBM, VPM, buhlmann, gradient factor modifications what? How do you tie this in to dive planning? Or is this just table use and history?


Technical diving
Do you teach technical diving? What is this lecture? This is a subject very near and dear to me. I'm interested. What is there about your program that you feel prepares interested divers to move on to technical diving?

 

[LACounty4806]

"I have no evidence other than the divers that I've trained and the way that I dive. I can't offer what I don't have. I do, however strongly believe that the divers being put out are poorly trained therefor I say so.

I'm not selling anything at all and in fact I'm trying to get away from teaching. When I do take a student there's certainly no money in it. I don't even know why I'm so interested in this. I have everything I need to dive happy for the rest of my life. I don't need anything from the dive industry yet I feel there are things wrong and I haven't yet been able to walk away from it. I try to explain what's going on, though, and I've devoted a lot of time and energy to it. All I can explain is what I see and the reasons why I think I see it. The only answer I ever get is that the death toll is low".[B]

Mike,

If you are going to tilt at windmills, you'll have to do better than your own observations. Nothing is going to change in the industry until someone figures that out. This negative campaigning is a waste of time. It only alienates divers and makes them less likely to trust the messanger.

"My staff is made up of divemasters that I've trained. Students never see them on the bottom and they dive well. You never heard of them though. Certainly none have been in movies like Zale Parry.[B]"

Zale Parry is a pretty damn good instructor in addition to her hard hat qualifications. It's her acting skills that are questionable.


"So far all you offer is that not too many die and that it's been done this way for a long time. Can you present evidence that the average diver is diving well. Let's just grade technique and forget deaths. Marketable and survivable isn't the same as good IMO. I already mentioned that I dived for years without training and without injury. That isn't evidence of good training since I had none".

That's the evidence that industry standards are based upon. "I feel" and " I think" are no way to reach a measurable conclusion. Can you think of a better way? Everything else is subjective Mike.

"Can you explain why that equipment configuration is the best? Can you explain what it's even acceptable? Can you explain what was going on in the picture I referenced with every one on their knees? Can you explain how practicing on your knees prepares you to dive midwater."

I'm flattered that you think that pictured equipment configuration is the best. LA County does not have a standardized configuration however. It doesn't fit in with the flexibility of training that we promote. You can't tell me which equipment configuration is the best either btw, because it's subjective. This is also not a debate on the laws of learning either. If you want a explanation for the picture, it's actually from our instructor course. Those are staff members acting as openwater students. They are working on problem identification and solving. Ironically, the picture below shows midwater training taking place. Midwater gear exchange. A standard of the program on all levels. Website design isn't a county strength I suppose and we are limited on our picture options. We're a public group who work for free to provide safe training to the people of the County of Los Angeles. We don't get paid. We teach because we feel strongly about safety as well. Do you get any money or does your staff for teaching your class?

"I don't doubt that standards like PADI's are modeled after yours. I find them lacking. I have presented a small fraction of what I've seen and specific questions. Do you have answers to those questions?"

As a renewed PADI professional for 2003, that is a little hypocritcal isn't it? Why not vote with you feet? You're sure not trying to change aything from the inside. As for the county standards, you don't know what they are do you? You made you mind up based on one picture. You're open minded all right.

"No need to refer to me as an expert even sarcastically just take a stab at my questions. You want to focus on my qualifications to question the standard. I think any one who holds a card is qualified to do that. My cridentials are humble and I'm not famous and never will be. I'm a PADI instructor, IANTD instructor, cave trained and trimix trained. I guess I could fill a fair sized box full of mostly useless cards. I have spent enough and risked enough to have earned the right to comment and ask questions".

I promise I will never refer to you as an expert. On that we can agree.

I feel better already.