Ditching the poodle jacket

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I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that solution.

What if *I* was your buddy and *I* told you that I could probably control my ascent by holding on to you?

It should... It was a question on your PADI, NAUI, BSAC, SSI, or YMCA (or whatever) Open Water I exam.

"Never ditch your weight at depth" is a basic - as basic as "never hold your breath." If you CAN ditch your weight at depth (or find an advantage in doing so), then you're diving overweighted in the first place. The mantra "Never ditch your weight at depth" came right after the chapter outlining how to precisely weight yourself correctly.

The real solution for ditching weight is to ditch it on the dock... Leave it off of your rig in the first place. You should always be able to swim your rig up. If you can't, then it's time to reweight yourself. If that doesn't solve the issue, then it's time to consider a different setup - better exposure protection, lighter tanks, an aluminum plate, or whatever. If you can't swim your rig up, then you're plainly leaving yourself open for an issue to arise one day where... You can't swim your rig up. :)

Holding on to your buddy - using a lift bag to haul yourself out - "walking out" of a small dive site - ditching the weight that you shouldn't have been diving with in the first place... These are all poor, convoluted solutions to symptoms that point to a simple problem... That your configuration needs to be rethought and/or "recalibrated." The solution to that simple problem is equally simple - weight yourself properly (again, covered in Basic Open Water classes) and dive with your weight "already ditched." :)

Well fair enough. I wasn't thinking back to any course in particular just working from first principles. And whilst I can't see any specific reason why you, my new buddy :) would have any problem assisting me if I was too buoyant, I can't easily see any good reason to ditch weights intentionally either.

Except for an BESA in which case all sensible bets are off anyhows. But in this case bent is still better than dead. And a buoyant ascent in case of OOG with no-one around and no chance of swimming to the surface is also what they teach in OW.

I'm a big proponent of proper weighting and find being correctly weighted makes diving a lot more pleasurable. However I don't dive heavy rigs so don't know what the situation is with the additional weight of diving doubles for example.

So for the kind of diving I have experience of, I can't see any reason except for utter catastrophe for ditching weights. But it is still a viable avenue in case of catastrophe assuming no other good options are available. For my kind of diving that would be having a first stage block preventing any gas getting through and without any other divers reasonably near. I would still likely try to ascend normally and breathe off my bladder if no other air source was available rather than ditch weights.

J
 
This does not happen with the STA-less DSS wings, which are the only ones I have used. The wobble stopper keeps the tank quite stable in the middle of one's back.

Is there any particular (singles) rig from DSS you'd suggest? Saspotato has also espoused their virtues and I hold both your opinions in high regard.

Thanks,
John
 
SeaJay, I'll agree that steel tanks will get rust spots, and will leave marks on fiberglass boats. That's why I have rubber mats in my boat. But it is a VERY rare diver here in Puget Sound who dives Al80 single tanks for very long -- they just don't make any sense here. Steel tanks are almost ubiquitous in the Pacific Northwest -- in salt water. Only in warm salt water do Al80s make sense.

Why? I've never dived the Pacific Northwest, but I can't imagine that it'd make any difference as far as corrosion rates go...

Yeah, I just put DriDeck in a couple of my boats. I liked it so much that I put it in the shop, too... But that's not really a solution for corroding tanks - that's more like a Band-Aid for the symptom, isn't it?

What makes diving steels in the Pacifc Northwest different than diving steels on the East Coast?

And finally, if you are doing a sub-30 meter dive, I hope you have at least 100 cubic feet of gas on your back. If you are weighted to be neutral with an EMPTY tank, you will be 7 lbs NEGATIVE at the beginning of the dive from the gas you are carrying.

Okay, sure, with a 100 cuft tank instead of an AL80, yeah.

At the end of your descent, you will still be 7 lbs negative from gas, but you will now also be 20 pounds negative from buoyancy loss in a heavy wetsuit, or 27 pounds negative.

I certainly hope not! What kind of 7 mil suit are you guys diving that compresses 20 lbs? What kind of 7 mil suit are you guys diving that compresses an ADDITIONAL 20 lbs from 15 (since that's the point at which you're neutrally weighted) to 100 feet?

If at this point you pull the inflator hose off your BC while attempting to use your pull dump (which happens!)

Yeah, I know... I've done it, too.

One of the many reasons I don't recommend pull dumps, by the way. :)

you are on the bottom with a BC you can't put any air in and that won't hold any of what's in it if you are at all head up. At this point, you'd better have weight to ditch, or redundant buoyancy.

...Or dive horizontal in the first place and not even notice that you've pulled your pull dump out. :) That's how it happened to me. I didn't know I'd done it until I was on my way up to the surface, and a few feet from the surface I turned "head up" and couldn't inflate my BC. Wow, that was like 10 or 12 years ago now... :) Feels like yesterday. :)

Anyway, I didn't have to ditch - primarily because my tank was empty, and I was therefore almost perfectly neutral. I kinda went, "Aw, man..." and swam over to the boat and got in and tried to figure out why I'd pulled the dump off.

At least, that's how it happened to me - maybe your experience has been different.

I know, and you know, that the better solution is NOT to be at 100 feet with a heavy wetsuit. But telling someone never, ever to pull their weights at depth could result in an avoidable fatality.

I did a body recovery once of a guy who was diving with 108 lbs of lead... No joke. He had one of those weight "harnesses" in addition to a slew of weight in the pockets of his BC (non weight integrated). He even had one weight IN his wetsuit. His buddy later told me that he'd dropped it down his neck hole just before splashing in "for good measure." :)

Why did this man die? He died because he ran out of gas. He was in 28' of water, with no overhead.

I wasn't there to see him die, but I can tell you based on what I pulled out of the water that I know exactly what happened. He breathed a "sucking" breath, and when he realized he was empty, he squeezed the power inflator. He might have gotten a couple of seconds' worth of gas to go into his BC, but that was it... And now he was say, some 85 pounds negative and with no gas.

Naturally, he should have dumped his gear at that point. Unfortunately for him, it took too long to get his BC and rig off (perhaps because it weighed so much) so that he could remove his weight harness (a suspender-type deal, worn under his BC because he couldn't get all of his weight on a belt).

I could go into the gorey details, but let's just say this: Clearly, overweighting killed this guy. We could speculate that if he'd been more aware, if he'd been diving with a buddy (they were "same ocean" buddies), if he'd had a little larger tank, if he'd had a Spare Air... I don't care. Plainly, all of those things contributed to this guy's death, but none so obvious as the fact that this guy was wearing 108 pounds of lead. He simply couldn't get rid of it all in time to surface.

Would the solution be to make sure it's ditchable? No... The solution would be to be correctly weighted in the first place.

Why was this guy so radically overweighted? Well... He was a megalodon shark tooth hunter, and he believed that if he was radically overweighted, he could dig better, and thus find more teeth. Was that true? Nope... He only found as many teeth as the rest of us did... And we were all correctly weighted. Two months before his death, he and I got into an argument about his weighting techniques, and he chose not to be on the team any more. Darkly amusing that they asked me to recover his body.

I'm not saying that everyone's gonna die if they're 5 pounds overweighted... I'm just saying that a diver should be correctly weighted - and that if he is, he won't need to ditch at depth, which is a really bad idea anyway (how would you stop the uncontrolled ascent from 20' on up? It works in reverse, too... If you can't swim 20 pounds up, then you certainly aren't going to be able to swim it down...)

It is NOT what every agency teaches. Even GUE teaches you either to have redundant buoyancy, or ditchable weight, with the former vastly preferred.

I've never seen any agency that does not teach correct weighting techniques and who doesn't drive home to NOT ditch weight at depth.

GUE teaches a "balanced rig," which philosophically stems from the holistic dive style. I have never heard in one of my GUE classes that it would be a good idea to ditch weight at depth.
 
Most wetsuit manufacturers will tell you that a wetsuit loses about 80% of it's bouyancy in the first 20' underwater... That is, there's only a couple of pounds' lift difference, even in thick wetsuits, from 15' to 100'.

Do you have some data to back this up?

If it is only a few pounds difference, why are we buying wings with 25-30lbs of lift, why not go the the smallest travel wing we can find. If I follow your logic a 10-11lb wing should be enough for any wetsuit diver;)

I do find more than a couple of pound difference in lift from 15' to 100' in my gear. I do admit, I am XL and dive Farmer John+Jacket in cold water so I expect a bit more than you might in the deep south.

I do agree with you, over weighting is a huge issue for many divers. I do think that in you drive to eliminate over weighting you have over simplified the issue and ignored the reality faced by divers in environments outside your corner of the world.
 
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I certainly hope not! What kind of 7 mil suit are you guys diving that compresses 20 lbs? What kind of 7 mil suit are you guys diving that compresses an ADDITIONAL 20 lbs from 15 (since that's the point at which you're neutrally weighted) to 100 feet?

Farmer john suits are 2 7mm suits, effectively making it a 14mm suit.

GUE teaches a "balanced rig," which philosophically stems from the holistic dive style. I have never heard in one of my GUE classes that it would be a good idea to ditch weight at depth.
Like I said. You will need to revisit what you think of as a balanced rig.

Do a search on SB.

Google is your friend. It helped Nerass
 
You don't happen to work for OxyCheq by any chance do you? :)

I do not. :D

One of my dive buddies has some OxyCheq wings and I'm impressed by them. FLAME SUIT ON!!!! I've seen a bunch of stuff from Halcyon and I just don't see the big deal. Sure a bit finer finish, but that doesn't justify the extra $'s. I've got a lot of Dive Rite. They make good stuff. OMS is fine as long as you avoid the bungee stuff. I have a bunch of DSS's odds and ends. Here on the East Coast I haven't seen a DSS product, namely the wings and plates, in the wild. FLAME SUIT OFF.

That would literally be my personal ultimate travel rig. When it is all said and done i think it tips the scales at just over 5#'s. They have that little sausage thing that goes between the tank bolts. You can get that tiny little plate to 5-6#'s not problem. Throw a few pounds of ditchable weight onto a weight belt and that's a pretty nifty rig!
 
Do you have some data to back this up?
None.

The bubbles in the neoprene compress at the same ratio as any other gas.
 
That would literally be my personal ultimate travel rig. When it is all said and done i think it tips the scales at just over 5#'s. They have that little sausage thing that goes between the tank bolts. You can get that tiny little plate to 5-6#'s not problem. Throw a few pounds of ditchable weight onto a weight belt and that's a pretty nifty rig!

Oh I can't wait then to PM you telling you I've got your dream (travel) rig :D

If you're ever in town you're more than welcome to borrow it of course, given you'll be travelling.

Are the any particularly different characteristics between the travel plate and the standard ones? If it was at the cost of stability I'd probably shy away.

Thanks,
~John
 
If you're doing a lot of diving at home, I'd recommend the stainless plate and the LCD 30 wing. If you primarily dive warm water through travel, I'd recommend the Kydex plate and one of the smaller wings (which one would be dependent on how much exposure protection you wear, and how much weight you carry). But my top recommendation would be to write to Tobin, because I think he does an absolutely superb job of counseling people into gear they'll be happy with.

Oh, and SeaJay, my number of 20 lbs for buoyancy loss on the thick wetsuit was from data presented during my GUE classes -- apparently JJ took a 7 mil suit to 100 feet and actually measured how much buoyancy it lost, and it was 23 pounds.
 

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