Ditching the poodle jacket

[Deep South Divers]

Of course, it does indeed raise the question, why would you ever want to take your rig off. Bug hunting? Dealing with leaking first stage/o-ring problem? Adjusting tank band? Passing gear through a narrow spot where both rig and human can't pass at same time (wreck/cave)? Changing your crotch strap

Yeah, but you could apply that same logic to anything you wanted...

"Why would you want to remove your nose?"

1. To get it pierced.
2. To treat a sinus infection.
3. To trade out with buddies.
4...

You get the idea. They all sound like logical reasons, as we sit here in front of our computers or talk about them at the dive shop or discuss it with friends/buddies/instructors. The reality is, though, that when you're underwater these things don't really happen.

Bug hunting: The age-old story of the diver that came up to a wreck or reef and found a fully rigged scuba unit just laying there on the seabed... Then saw a person swim out of a hole on a breath hold with a lobster in his hand and don the rig underwater, is an urban legend. The story of John Chatterton doffing his rig and pushing it through a restriction ahead of him inside of the U-Who in order to discover the identity of the sub is a lie. Never happened. Stories like these proliferate because they impress opon the listener how "serious" or "cool" a diver is because he's so macho that he can dive, even without his life support. In reality, the sea cares not how macho you are, and nobody continues to breathe without life support - and that's all there is to it.

Dealing with leaking first stage/o-ring problem: What, the problem wasn't there five minutes ago when you were topside and could do something about it? What are you going to do to fix it underwater? Surface, fix, dive if there's a problem. It is, after all, kinda important that it works correctly.

Adjusting tank bands: Replace your crappy plastic-buckled straps with these - Stainless Steel Cam Latch Tank Strap reviews and discounts, Scubamax - and never have the problem again.

Passing gear through a narrow spot where both rig and human can't pass at same time (wreck/cave)? Yep, there it is... The urban legend lives on. Honestly, if I can't get in, what's to assure me that I can get out? Find another way, rerig so that you're narrower, cut yourself a hole in the wreck... Whatever. There are a lot of other solutions other than removing your nose to gain access... Er, removing your life support.

I'm more than happy to lean towards the rig as life support don't take it off ever but I can see situations where it could be necessary or at least preferable (itchy back syndrome) to be able to doff and don.

"Itchy back syndrome?" C'mon... You're making this stuff up.

I guess it's hardly that big a deal and if in 40 years you've not come across a need then perhaps it's not so important to distribute weight between human and rig. I'd prefer it that way as I'm no fan of weight belts.
J

Me neither.

...Which is a great reason why to absolutely minimize your weighting and never dive overweighted. AND you can then swim your rig up. Uh-oh... There goes that broken record again...

 

[InTheDrink]

Yeah, but you could apply that same logic to anything you wanted...

"Why would you want to remove your nose?"

1. To get it pierced.
2. To treat a sinus infection.
3. To trade out with buddies.
4...

You get the idea. They all sound like logical reasons, as we sit here in front of our computers or talk about them at the dive shop or discuss it with friends/buddies/instructors. The reality is, though, that when you're underwater these things don't really happen.

Bug hunting: The age-old story of the diver that came up to a wreck or reef and found a fully rigged scuba unit just laying there on the seabed... Then saw a person swim out of a hole on a breath hold with a lobster in his hand and don the rig underwater, is an urban legend. The story of John Chatterton doffing his rig and pushing it through a restriction ahead of him inside of the U-Who in order to discover the identity of the sub is a lie. Never happened. Stories like these proliferate because they impress opon the listener how "serious" or "cool" a diver is because he's so macho that he can dive, even without his life support. In reality, the sea cares not how macho you are, and nobody continues to breathe without life support - and that's all there is to it.

Dealing with leaking first stage/o-ring problem: What, the problem wasn't there five minutes ago when you were topside and could do something about it? What are you going to do to fix it underwater? Surface, fix, dive if there's a problem. It is, after all, kinda important that it works correctly.

Adjusting tank bands: Replace your crappy plastic-buckled straps with these - Stainless Steel Cam Latch Tank Strap reviews and discounts, Scubamax - and never have the problem again.

Passing gear through a narrow spot where both rig and human can't pass at same time (wreck/cave)? Yep, there it is... The urban legend lives on. Honestly, if I can't get in, what's to assure me that I can get out? Find another way, rerig so that you're narrower, cut yourself a hole in the wreck... Whatever. There are a lot of other solutions other than removing your nose to gain access... Er, removing your life support.



"Itchy back syndrome?" C'mon... You're making this stuff up.



Me neither.

...Which is a great reason why to absolutely minimize your weighting and never dive overweighted. AND you can then swim your rig up. Uh-oh... There goes that broken record again...

Whilst I may agree with your general thrust, and you are, in fairness, the first person to make me smile today and it's 5pm here...

You must live a very sheltered diving life

I've seen divers take their rig off to crawl into crevices to get bugs. It's not particularly surprising to see, surprised you think it's an urban legend.

Blown o-ring/first stage problem: of course, ideally you deal with these *before* you get in the water. If only life was so convenient. Most of these issues manifest prior to descending but not all.

Tank band: again, in your ideal world it never happens. In the real world though it does and I've seen it several times and I must have about 1 millionth of the dives you have.

Passing kit through narrow passages: Haven't seen this personally I'll admit, but I can't see what a 7' hose is for otherwise. I'll be very surprised if this is some urban legend.

I'm happy to cede your experience over mine (I'm pretty new and mainly vacation diver although I take a lot of vacations ) but I've seen several of the situations you say don't exist in real life. In the real life under water I've seen, the do exist.



J

 

[TSandM]

Stainless steel is expensive, and the grades that better resist corrosion are more expensive. Finish work is expensive, and Tobin adds the elastomer grommets in the bottom slots, which also raises the cost.

As with everything in scuba, it's almost always possible to find something cheaper, but cheaper isn't always the best route to take. That said, plates from a number of manufacturers are good quality, and sales can sometimes find you some excellent deals. But Tobin makes good gear, and gives even better advice.

 

[InTheDrink]

BTW - just read latest review of Freedom Harness on scubatoys (Freedom Backplate Reviews). Some chap called SeaJay - coincidence??? (methinks not). You don't seem to like it - which has raised my antenna - have you really found it that bad?

J

 

[InTheDrink]

Stainless steel is expensive, and the grades that better resist corrosion are more expensive. Finish work is expensive, and Tobin adds the elastomer grommets in the bottom slots, which also raises the cost.

As with everything in scuba, it's almost always possible to find something cheaper, but cheaper isn't always the best route to take. That said, plates from a number of manufacturers are good quality, and sales can sometimes find you some excellent deals. But Tobin makes good gear, and gives even better advice.

Damn I keeping swinging this way and that.

I'm slightly concerned that their harness is a bit, well, flimsy. It seems pretty short on D rings. Am I going mad (again)?

And from the 'complete package' on the website, it doesn't seem that complete to me. Without putting you out too much, if you had to choose (within financial reason) a list of things to get from DSS that would set you up, what would that list be? I'm aware I should probably short circuit this conversation and just talk to Tobin but that way I'm bound to buy from him even if I don't want to

J

 

[gcbryan]

The complete package just means a backplate, wing, the webbing for the one piece harness and a softer piece of webbing for the crotch strap. Included will be the d rings for waist and shoulder as well as the scooter ring and any triglide you need.

For the most part you don't need triglides for his system due to the hard "rubber" inserts. He also has rubber grommets to hold the wing on and uses a design that doesn't require a STA. There are also rubber pieces that go on the cambands to prevent tank wobble.

When I bought mine it also included a knife mounted on the waist band.

If you want pockets of any kind or a harness other than the basic one that would be ordered apart from the "package".

I wouldn't buy a "package" if we were talking about a dive store offering a complete scuba package but package in this case is in regards to a BC. If you were buying a traditional BC there wouldn't even be a package since it would be one piece.

The harness is standard webbing just like you would find for a weight belt. That's hardly flimsy. The d rings provided are those used in a standard hog setup. You don't really need more. If you want more just order more and put them where you want them.

Regarding removing your kit underwater...I've never had to do it but have some close while diving and tangled in kelp.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

The complete package just means a backplate, wing, the webbing for the one piece harness and a softer piece of webbing for the crotch strap. Included will be the d rings for waist and shoulder as well as the scooter ring and any triglide you need.

The website shows that cam straps are also included (as well as the tank wedge blocks, which I think you mentioned but I left off your quote because it was in another section). "Choose any combination of DSS Back Plate, Harness, & Wing, & we'll also include 2 Cam Straps and a pair of Wedge Blocks."

I noticed the knife was included on the hogarthian harness DSS offers - I thought that was a nice touch. Sure, you might have a specific knife you prefer, but if you don't, well, then at least you have one for starters.

Stainless steel is expensive, and the grades that better resist corrosion are more expensive. Finish work is expensive, and Tobin adds the elastomer grommets in the bottom slots, which also raises the cost.
..... But Tobin makes good gear, and gives even better advice.

Speaking of stainless types, I read that the Oxycheq plates are Type 316 stainless. Coming from the boating angle this is preferable to (for example) Type 304, for corrosion resistance. The DSS website shows that the plates are made of "300 Series Stainless Steel," and I meant to ask Tobin which type it was when I spoke with him but I forgot (he is, indeed, very helpful and knowledgeable).

As you can tell, I'm a detail nut :cool2: It can't be helped.

B.

 

[InTheDrink]

The complete package just means a backplate, wing, the webbing for the one piece harness and a softer piece of webbing for the crotch strap. Included will be the d rings for waist and shoulder as well as the scooter ring and any triglide you need.

For the most part you don't need triglides for his system due to the hard "rubber" inserts. He also has rubber grommets to hold the wing on and uses a design that doesn't require a STA. There are also rubber pieces that go on the cambands to prevent tank wobble.

When I bought mine it also included a knife mounted on the waist band.

If you want pockets of any kind or a harness other than the basic one that would be ordered apart from the "package".

I wouldn't buy a "package" if we were talking about a dive store offering a complete scuba package but package in this case is in regards to a BC. If you were buying a traditional BC there wouldn't even be a package since it would be one piece.

The harness is standard webbing just like you would find for a weight belt. That's hardly flimsy. The d rings provided are those used in a standard hog setup. You don't really need more. If you want more just order more and put them where you want them.

Regarding removing your kit underwater...I've never had to do it but have some close while diving and tangled in kelp.

Flimsy was a very poorly chosen word and I'll excuse myself for the day I have in it. I'm collaborating in a very horrible but necessary way with having a friend sectioned. So some words have been ill chosen.

How quick is it to get into these more minimalist harnesses? I don't like faffing around and I like to be kitted up early in preparation for a dive. I do not like rushing (except when posting on SB).

I've determined to drop Tobin a line and see what he has to say. I'm a big believer in good service and clearly the quality of his goods is supported by what people are saying here.

Thanks,
John

 

[H2O 70]

It seems pretty short on D rings. Am I going mad (again)?

D-rings are inexpensive to add. 6 is standard. One on each shoulder strap, one on each hip, one in the front of the crotch strap and one on the rear. If you're not into scootering, 5 is fine.

As for your sanity I'm not qualified to answer that.

 

[InTheDrink]

The website shows that cam straps are also included (as well as the tank wedge blocks, which I think you mentioned but I left off your quote because it was in another section). "Choose any combination of DSS Back Plate, Harness, & Wing, & we'll also include 2 Cam Straps and a pair of Wedge Blocks."

I noticed the knife was included on the hogarthian harness DSS offers - I thought that was a nice touch. Sure, you might have a specific knife you prefer, but if you don't, well, then at least you have one for starters.



Speaking of stainless types, I read that the Oxycheq plates are Type 316 stainless. Coming from the boating angle this is preferable to (for example) Type 304, for corrosion resistance. The DSS website shows that the plates are made of "300 Series Stainless Steel," and I meant to ask Tobin which type it was when I spoke with him but I forgot (he is, indeed, very helpful and knowledgeable).

As you can tell, I'm a detail nut :cool2: It can't be helped.

B.

The other things is that I'm not familiar with a lot of the terminology so wedge blocks sound great now that I know what they are (which I didn't 45 minutes ago). So I'm also starting from a position of relative ignorance. Guess that's why I'm asking questions here to help me along

J