Ditching the poodle jacket

[InTheDrink]

As for your sanity I'm not qualified to answer that.

Wasn't much to start with and fading fast
...

5 D-rings sounds fine.

But how many elastic bands to keep stuff from dragging?

J

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Wasn't much to start with and fading fast
.....But how many elastic bands to keep stuff from dragging?

J

If you are properly weighted, you don't need to worry about anything....

Sorry, can't help myself from being a smartass

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

BTW - just read latest review of Freedom Harness on scubatoys (Freedom Backplate Reviews). Some chap called SeaJay - coincidence??? (methinks not). You don't seem to like it - which has raised my antenna - have you really found it that bad?

J

I am the manufacturer of the Freedom Plate and after seeing this post It's time for me to step in to defend myself and my product. An attack on my product is a direct attack on me as far as I'm concerned.

This review is a complete farce. Obviously the individual who put up this slander has no clue what a Freedom Plate even is and has never seen or much less used one.
I suspect this is a cheap shot by a desparate competitor and it's obvious this person is a complete idiot.

First of all to make the claim that the shoulder straps don't work properly is proof that the person has never set one up. The design is very similar to an old school backpack where the straps come out of a single point (the top slot) and form a Y that fits very well over the shoulders. Anybody who has one knows this.

Second, the person is full of it when he/she? makes a claim that bolts sticking through the plate cut up a wetsuit. If they ever saw one in person they'd know that the screws holding on the rail are fully countersunk and flat. There is no way they will cut anything.

All the other claims are a bunch of crap, and I'm really upset that someone would be this nasty. Whoever wrote this is a complete liar and knows it.

I've sold over 150 of these so far and have never had one come back because somebody didn't like it. I've never had one came back for anything period!
In fact, I have a complete money back guarantee that if someone is unhappy with the product they can return it for a full refund no questions asked.

If anybody would like to know the real details about my product lets have a normal discussion about it. This includes the OP.

As far as reviews on scubatoys, many of the people that put up reviews in the beginning I know or have talked to on the phone. I didn't ask any of them to go on there and write reviews, they did it on their own. They heard that scubatoys took on my product and were so happy for me that they wanted to rave about it to see me do well.
Many people that I know and dive with from here to Socal have switched over to the Freedom Plate for their single tank diving, and not because I'm a nice guy, but because the plate really works and is the most comfortable well thought out plate they've ever used. Just ask any ligitimate person who uses one and they will tell you.

Wow, now I know what it feels like to unfairly bashed by a liar who doesn't have a clue. It's quite painfull. It's like having another adult rip on your child in front of you. What would you do?

 

[Deep South Divers]

Whilst I may agree with your general thrust, and you are, in fairness, the first person to make me smile today and it's 5pm here...

Well Jeez... That sucks. I've had days like that, too...

You must live a very sheltered diving life

Hahahahahaaaa... No, in fact it's exactly the opposite. I go where I am called to dive - mostly around the Southeastern US, but also throughout the Caribbean, the Northeast, the West Coast, Central America, Bermuda... The Northeast... Baja... Sea of Cortez... Peurto Rico... Central America...

I dunno - "sheltered" may mean something different to you. I've not spent much time overseas, and I've specifically avoided the Pacific Northwest and Alaska... But I'm confident that most divers would not consider me "sheltered."

I've seen divers take their rig off to crawl into crevices to get bugs. It's not particularly surprising to see, surprised you think it's an urban legend.

Yeah, I hear about that all the time. Never seen in in person. I would be surprised to find that you have - or that anyone has. The story always seems to come up in dive circles over a couple of beers, but that doesn't make it true.

If you've seen bug hunters do this, then good on ya. Maybe that's something that your friends and buddies do. I don't have any other explanation for it, seeing as I have never seen it actually done in any of my travels.

Blown o-ring/first stage problem: of course, ideally you deal with these *before* you get in the water. If only life was so convenient. Most of these issues manifest prior to descending but not all.

Okay, well, let me know when that happens to you. When it does, feel free to remove your life support and repair the issue with your bare hands at depth.

Tank band: again, in your ideal world it never happens. In the real world though it does and I've seen it several times and I must have about 1 millionth of the dives you have.

Oh, I didn't say that this doesn't happen. I said "here's a product that will permenantly solve the issue." Take the advice or leave it, I don't care... You're more than welcome to have the issue, doff your rig underwater, attempt to repair the issue, and then don your rig underwater. Makes no difference to me. I just thought I'd be helpful and show you a product that would not have that problem in the first place.

Passing kit through narrow passages: Haven't seen this personally I'll admit, but I can't see what a 7' hose is for otherwise. I'll be very surprised if this is some urban legend.

*sigh* the 7-foot hose is so that two divers can exit through a restriction in a single file, even if they're in an OOG situation. Without it, there'd be no way for OOG divers to exit single file.

It's got nothing to do with taking your life support off underwater and putting it somewhere where you are not.

I'm happy to cede your experience over mine (I'm pretty new and mainly vacation diver although I take a lot of vacations ) but I've seen several of the situations you say don't exist in real life. In the real life under water I've seen, the do exist.

Dunno, man... Whatever you wanna do.

 

[Deep South Divers]

BTW - just read latest review of Freedom Harness on scubatoys (Freedom Backplate Reviews). Some chap called SeaJay - coincidence??? (methinks not). You don't seem to like it - which has raised my antenna - have you really found it that bad?

J

It's not a coincidence. If I wanted to hide my identity, I wouldn't have used my name.

Sorry, Eric, I didnt like the plate.

I am the manufacturer of the Freedom Plate and after seeing this post It's time for me to step in to defend myself and my product. An attack on my product is a direct attack on me as far as I'm concerned.

It's not an "attack," Eric... I didn't like the plate.

This review is a complete farce. Obviously the individual who put up this slander has no clue what a Freedom Plate even is and has never seen or much less used one.
I suspect this is a cheap shot by a desparate competitor and it's obvious this person is a complete idiot.

Well, jeez, thanks for your input.

I am not a competitor - I don't manufacture anything. I am a commercial diver. I dive for a living. Why would I have an interest in "bashing" you or your product? I simply didn't like the product, Eric, and I said specifically why so that others can make an informed decision, too.

You say that you've sold 150 Freedom Plates, and never once had anyone say anything bad about them. I have a difficult time believing that, but if it's true, then you've got 149 happy users and one no-so-happy user. I doubt you'll change that, either, by publicly attacking and accusing the "one" non-so-happy user on a public forum and calling him an "idiot" and a "liar."

First of all to make the claim that the shoulder straps don't work properly is proof that the person has never set one up. The design is very similar to an old school backpack where the straps come out of a single point (the top slot) and form a Y that fits very well over the shoulders. Anybody who has one knows this.

Yes, I know this... And I also have two AT Paks, which is the "old school backpack" that you're referring to.

My AT Paks have two slots in the top of the "plate" - not three - and they're both the same size, unlike on your Freedom Plate. Having the slots the same size (length) makes the shoulder straps exit the "plate" at the same angle. Different length slots make the shoulder straps exit the plate at different angles.

Regardless, the same problem exists with your Freedom Plate that exists with the AT Pak... Because the shoulder straps come up to one central point behind the diver's neck, they rub. That's why it was an improvement to separate the points where the shoulder straps hit the plate "way back when," when backplates were being invented.

Second, the person is full of it when he/she?

He.

...makes a claim that bolts sticking through the plate cut up a wetauit. If they ever saw one in person they'd know that the screws holding on the rail are fully countersunk and flat. There is no way they will cut anything.

The plate that I used had a set of nylocks holding the system together, and they protruded off the plate and were very uncomfortable. Nuts and lockwashers would make the problem worse.

There's a couple of fastener companies making a fully flat nut that would extend into the plate holes (Halcyon uses them in some places on their plates), but unless the bolts are cut to exactly the right length (which would change with some wings), the system wouldn't work very well.

All the other claims are a bunch of crap, and I'm really upset that someone would be this nasty. Whoever wrote this is a complete liar and knows it.

Look, I understand that you feel personally attacked... But this isn't a personal attack. I didn't like the plate, and said so - and why. Going onto a public forum like this and calling me a "liar" and an "idiot" only proves that you can't take the criticism, even when it's logically and truthfully put together.

The "other claims" that you're talking about are my comments that the plate was nonstandard (and therefore wouldn't fit any backplate accessory that I own) and that it held the tank too close to my head... Made worse by using the provided, angled STA. What about this sounds like "a bunch of crap?" What about this is a "lie?"

Many people that I know and dive with from here to Socal have switched over to the Freedom Plate for their single tank diving, and not because I'm a nice guy, but because the plate really works and is the most comfortable well thought out plate they've ever used. Just ask any ligitimate person who uses one and they will tell you.

Wow, now I know what it feels like to unfairly bashed by a liar who doesn't have a clue. It's quite painfull. It's like having another adult rip on your child in front of you. What would you do?

Sorry you feel that way, Eric, but I can assure you that I am a legitimate person, and not a "liar."

Eric, I didn't like the plate, that's all. I can't see that other peoples' experiences would be any different than my own, but if I'm "the only one," then what have you got to worry about?

 

[InTheDrink]

It's not a coincidence. If I wanted to hide my identity, I wouldn't have used my name.

Sorry, Eric, I didnt like the plate.



It's not an "attack," Eric... I didn't like the plate.



Well, jeez, thanks for your input.

I am not a competitor - I don't manufacture anything. I am a commercial diver. I dive for a living. Why would I have an interest in "bashing" you or your product? I simply didn't like the product, Eric, and I said specifically why so that others can make an informed decision, too.

You say that you've sold 150 Freedom Plates, and never once had anyone say anything bad about them. I have a difficult time believing that, but if it's true, then you've got 149 happy users and one no-so-happy user. I doubt you'll change that, either, by publicly attacking and accusing the "one" non-so-happy user on a public forum and calling him an "idiot" and a "liar."



Yes, I know this... And I also have two AT Paks, which is the "old school backpack" that you're referring to.

My AT Paks has two slots in the top of the "plate" - not three - and they're both the same size, unlike on your Freedom Plate. Having the slots the same size (length) makes the shoulder straps exit the "plate" at the same angle. Different length slots make the shoulder straps exit the plate at different angles.

Regardless, the same problem exists with your Freedom Plate that exists with the AT Pak... Because the shoulder straps come up to one central point behind the diver's neck, they rub. That's why it was an improvement to separate the points where the shoulder straps hit the plate "way back when," when backplates were being invented.



He.



The plate that I used had a set of nylocks holding the system together, and they protruded off the plate and were very uncomfortable. Nuts and lockwashers would make the problem worse.

There's a couple of fastener companies making a fully flat nut that would extend into the plate holes, but unless the bolts are cut to exactly the right length (which would change with some wings), the system wouldn't work very well.



Look, I understand that you feel personally attacked... But this isn't a personal attack. I didn't like the plate, and said so - and why. Going onto a public forum like this and calling me a "liar" and an "idiot" only proves that you can't take the criticism, even when it's logically and truthfully put together.

The "other claims" that you're talking about are my comments that the plate was nonstandard (and therefore wouldn't fit any backplate accessory that I own) and that it held the tank too close to my head... Made worse by using the provided, angled STA. What about this sounds like "a bunch of crap?" What about this is a "lie?"



Sorry you feel that way, Eric, but I can assure you that I am a legitimate person, and not a "liar."

Eric, I didn't like the plate, that's all. I can't see that other peoples' experiences would be any different than my own, but if I'm "the only one," then what have you got to worry about?

Het SeaJay,

I want to start this post off on the right footing, which is gratitude for the input to this discussion and my early education in these strange BP/W things. I mean that.

Here's the criticism and I hope you take this well: you don't seem very open to challenge. You seem to think that any event that I construe is manufacture, even to the point of calling me a liar (when you said you don't believe I've seen the bug thing - I have and I have witnesses on this board if such a mundanity could even be considered) The problem with that is that once you lose openness you stop learning and stopping learning is aka to CTD (circling the drain). You don't want to do this especially with a wealth of knowledge such a yours. And this isn't flattery - your posts have been geniunely thought provoking to me, even if I don't always agree with your conclusions.

With regard to the Freedom plate - I have zero experience with plates never mind specifics so I'll duck out of that one.

But in the largest attempt possible to not sound patronising (and failing) please remember that you'll never know everything and that enlightenment is often the knowledge that you know nothing.

Thanks,
J

 

[Deep South Divers]

Het SeaJay,

I want to start this post off on the right footing, which is gratitude for the input to this discussion and my early education in these strange BP/W things. I mean that.

Thanks, J.

Here's the criticism and I hope you take this well: you don't seem very open to challenge. You seem to think that any event that I construe is manufacture, even to the point of calling me a liar (when you said you don't believe I've seen the bug thing - I have and I have witnesses on this board if such a mundanity could even be considered)

J, I never used the word "liar." I said, "Yeah, I hear about [the bug thing] all the time. Never seen in in person. I would be surprised to find that you have - or that anyone has. The story always seems to come up in dive circles over a couple of beers, but that doesn't make it true." If you want to make the "liar" connection, then that's your right. But I didn't call you a "liar."

The only person using the word "liar" is Eric, and it was in reference to me. But hey, I've got thick skin and am not too worried about it, even though it and the subsequent "idiot" insult are both clear violations of TOS.

The problem with that is that once you lose openness you stop learning and stopping learning is aka to CTD (circling the drain). You don't want to do this especially with a wealth of knowledge such a yours.

Well, I'm oddly flattered, in a backhanded kind of way.

And this isn't flattery - your posts have been geniunely thought provoking to me, even if I don't always agree with your conclusions.

Well, that's good, J. I hope that you keep some of these things in mind as you continue your diving. After a while, I'm sure that you'll come up with the same conclusions.

You know, I can put the information out there and even be insulted for it... But I can't make people believe it. No matter - it's no skin off my back. I was just trying to be nice and save you a lot of time and effort (and possibly injury or worse).

With regard to the Freedom plate - I have zero experience with plates never mind specifics so I'll duck out of that one.

Ah, it's probably a good idea. He doesn't seem to happy with my review.

But in the largest attempt possible to not sound patronising (and failing) please remember that you'll never know everything and that enlightenment is often the knowledge that you know nothing.

No worries, J. Let us know how things go. PM me if you have any questions. I have a funny feeling that the more you dive, the more you'll remember things about this thread. I'm available to you.

 

[TSandM]

When you set up a backplate rig, you can decide how many D-rings you want, and where you want them. Most of us find three on the harness and one or two on the crotch strap are plenty. The two chest d-rings are for clipping off backup lights (which ride along the harness, and are secured with rings of inner tube around the webbing, which Tobin includes in his setup) and for clipping off regulators, primary lights, and eventually extra bottles. The left hip d-ring is for your console or SPG, and sometimes for a reel or SMB and spool, although you can also clip those to your butt d-ring.

For all the other little stuff I carry, I use my pockets. That includes wetnotes, a spare mask, a Dive Alert, a mirror, an SMB and spool, sometimes (when I'm assisting) a disassembled snorkel. Pockets are kind of a necessity for a BP/W diver, whether you buy one that slides onto the harness or whether you put them on your exposure protection, or buy X-shorts.

BTW, I have never dived or even seen a Freedom Plate, but if you are small or have narrow shoulders, that method of running the harness might work very well. I cross my shoulder straps, because otherwise, they tend to slide off onto my arms.

A properly adjusted harness is VERY easy to get in and out of. If it is difficult, it is almost certainly too tight. Looser shoulder straps and tighter crotch strap fix that. I can actually get in and out of my harness faster than I can get in and out of the jacket BC I use for classes.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

It's not a coincidence. If I wanted to hide my identity, I wouldn't have used my name.

Sorry, Eric, I didnt like the plate.



It's not an "attack," Eric... I didn't like the plate.



Well, jeez, thanks for your input.

I am not a competitor - I don't manufacture anything. I am a commercial diver. I dive for a living. Why would I have an interest in "bashing" you or your product? I simply didn't like the product, Eric, and I said specifically why so that others can make an informed decision, too.

You say that you've sold 150 Freedom Plates, and never once had anyone say anything bad about them. I have a difficult time believing that, but if it's true, then you've got 149 happy users and one no-so-happy user. I doubt you'll change that, either, by publicly attacking and accusing the "one" non-so-happy user on a public forum and calling him an "idiot" and a "liar."



Yes, I know this... And I also have two AT Paks, which is the "old school backpack" that you're referring to.

The AT Pak has two slots in the top of the "plate" - not three - and they're both the same size, unlike on your Freedom Plate. Having the slots the same size (length) makes the shoulder straps exit the "plate" at the same angle. Different length slots make the shoulder straps exit the plate at different angles.

Regardless, the same problem exists with your Freedom Plate that exists with the AT Pak... Because the shoulder straps come up to one central point behind the diver's neck, they rub. That's why it was an improvement to separate the points where the shoulder straps hit the plate "way back when," when backplates were being invented.



He.



The plate that I used had a set of nylocks holding the system together, and they protruded off the plate and were very uncomfortable. Nuts and lockwashers would make the problem worse.

There's a couple of fastener companies making a fully flat nut that would extend into the plate holes, but unless the bolts are cut to exactly the right length (which would change with some wings), the system wouldn't work very well.



Look, I understand that you feel personally attacked... But this isn't a personal attack. I didn't like the plate, and said so - and why. Going onto a public forum like this and calling me a "liar" and an "idiot" only proves that you can't take the criticism, even when it's logically and truthfully put together.



Sorry you feel that way, Eric, but I can assure you that I am a legitimate person, and not a "liar."

Eric, I didn't like the plate, that's all. I can't see that other peoples' experiences would be any different than my own, but if I'm "the only one," then what have you got to worry about?

Where did you get the plate?
Did you purchase the product from either me directly or scuba toys?

What is the serial number on either the front or back of the plate?

Why did it have nylocks sticking through the front of the plate? They come standard with countersunk stainless screws to hold the rail on which are flat. People dive these with T-shirts on and have absolutely no problems. Unless you customized it and went out on your own, I have no control over that.

If you bought it from either me directly or scubatoys send it back and I will refund all your money.
Check your PM.

I put a hell of a lot of effort into hand shaping, hand tooling, deburring and fussing over these plates. A lot of thought went into the design and it was tested by many different people over the years. The design has gone through several tweaks and changes to bring it to where it is today. These plates are like my children.

If you would have put up a constructive review that was well put together and logical with salient points I would would be thankful and welcomed it. But your review was full of holes half truths and miss representations.

It's obvious you didn't set up the rig correctly because the problems you talk about would be non existant if you set it up the way it was intended to be assembled.
But again, if you went off on your own with some different set up technique other than they way it was designed to be set up, then you're on your own. I have no control over what people do with their equipment once it leaves here.

Later

 

[InTheDrink]

Thanks, J.



J, I never used the word "liar." I just said that I didn't believe that you've really seen people doff their rigs and leave them on the seabed floor while they go swimming into a hole on a breath hold at depth in search of lobsters. If you want to make the "liar" connection, then that's your right. But I didn't call you a "liar."

Interim post, but I've dived with Saspotato and her buddy and rigs were removed to get under various shelves to get bugs. So what part of not believing me and calling me a liar are inconsistent. Sorry, but just cos you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And you did indirectly call me a liar. Not good especially as I've enjoyed being your weight grabbing buddy over the last 36 hours

J

p.s. please don't do the 'well they weren't holding their breath. this is scuba after alll'.