Ditching the poodle jacket

[InTheDrink]

Oh, man... That's fantastic.

Rick: Thanks for re-opening the thread. You rock.

I'm seriously excited for you, J... And can't wait to see photos. I'm really interested in how the "comfort harness" hooked up with the Freedom plate. I'm looking forward to photographs.

For what it's worth, I don't think that any of us would have thought it weird to see you wearing the rig in a work suit with a fire extinguisher on it... LOL... I think we can all relate. Sure, it might be irrational behavior, but we all relate... New scuba gear is about as cool as it gets.

By "having trouble with the quick release belt," I assume that you're speaking of installing the buckle. I don't have a photo, but if you were looking head-on at a diver wearing the buckle, the RIGHT (diver's left) belt threads OVER the first bit of metal and DOWN (towards the diver's pelvis) through the first slot. It then alternates back up and through the second slot, then down through the third. It then folds back and up through the FIRST slot so that the excess strap sits behind the belt. Leave a foot or more of webbing (you can cut it later after you're all adjusted) and secure with inner tube twice. One of these inner tubes will always stay at the end of the excess strap (closest to your left D-ring) and the second (closer to the buckle) will be used to secure the excess strap from the OTHER side of the belt when you're wearing the rig.

Note that the buckle should NOT sit in the center of the rig - the crotch strap can and will interfere with the operation of the buckle, and can even catch the buckle and open it up unexpectedly. The buckle should instead sit on the diver's RIGHT hip - making both sides of the belt part of the harness equally too long. (If the buckle sits in the center, then the rig's buckle side is shorter than the non-buckle side - this is incorrect.)

I hope that makes sense.

The belt should be comfortably snug when you're wearing the rig, and with the crotch strap connected, if you squat the crotch strap should just BARELY snug up... That is, you should never actually feel the crotch strap at all unless you squat down all the way - and even then, only barely. It will seem too loose by an inch or two when you're just standing if it's properly adjusted. You may want to shorten this later, but probably not by more than a centimeter or two. More on that later - that's an easy and quick adjustment.

I can't wait to see photos. Congratulations.

Thanks for the top tips on the buckle threading. I *think* I've got it right. It was not easy getting the webbing back through slat no.1. No sirree. Blisters on my hand to prove it.

So kit is broadly adjusted now. Will take it to the pool next week (easter's getting in the way this weekend) and fine tune then. Will take some kind of marker to mark where I think webbing needs to be trimmed (there's a lot of excess). Red hot knife best way to cut it I imagine ?

In the end, by the way, I'm not sure the comfort harness makes much difference. It really amounts to just a little shoulder padding. The crotch strap that came with the harness I've ditched in favour of the separate crotch strap I bought at the same time. Only difference there is a) quick release plastic snap - which I can see probably is helpful and b) only one D ring in front of crotch and I want one at the back too. Oh, and c) it's 1 inch webbing and I'm thinking about crotch rot again

Cheers SeaJay and everyone else. Reckon I'm all set to go diving now! My only fear now is that I'll look better than I actually am

J

 

[burna]

Hey! That looks noice mayte!

Hot knife is the go for trimming webbing for sure, you can cut it and then singe it with a lighter but it isn't the same and always seems to fray again after a while.

I did try heating an old knife on the gas hob but wasn't all that successful. I ended up using a hot knife attachment to my butane soldering iron which works a treat. A normal flat soldering iron (you could prob'ly buy one for 5 quid) would prob'ly work ok too, might need to file the end a little more knife-like.

 

[InTheDrink]

Hey! That looks noice mayte!

Hot knife is the go for trimming webbing for sure, you can cut it and then singe it with a lighter but it isn't the same and always seems to fray again after a while.

I did try heating an old knife on the gas hob but wasn't all that successful. I ended up using a hot knife attachment to my butane soldering iron which works a treat. A normal flat soldering iron (you could prob'ly buy one for 5 quid) would prob'ly work ok too, might need to file the end a little more knife-like.

p.s. dare I even ask how you managed to write your location upsidedown?

J

 

[burna]

p.s. dare I even ask how you managed to write your location upsidedown?

J

What do you mean...upside down??

Yours is upside down!

 

[InTheDrink]

What do you mean...upside down??

Yours is upside down!

And don't tell me, you've a shoulder dump but no rear dump?

 

[Deep South Divers]

Thanks for the top tips on the buckle threading. I *think* I've got it right. It was not easy getting the webbing back through slat no.1. No sirree. Blisters on my hand to prove it.

Yowch. Some buckles have wider slots than others - and some webbing is thicker than others. Combine a small slot and thick webbing and... Well... It can be a real pain in the fingers, especially if someone trimmed the webbing "thick" with a "ball" at the end instead of a flat surface.

In the future, when you cut, use your hot knife to flatten the webbing - hopefully that'll help.

So kit is broadly adjusted now. Will take it to the pool next week (easter's getting in the way this weekend) and fine tune then. Will take some kind of marker to mark where I think webbing needs to be trimmed (there's a lot of excess). Red hot knife best way to cut it I imagine ?

Yep, again I agree with what's already been said - the very best way is a "knife" attachment on a soldering iron - or even just a regular soldering iron (just use the pointy end to create your desired cut and shape it) - but I've also had good luck with a good set of stainless steel kitchen scissors (nice cut) and a "blowtorch" style windproof lighter. Cut all of the ends of your webbing in a large semicircle (instead of straight across) and it'll tend to last longer and be easier to doff and don, too. Of course, if you do this, it'll take a few minutes to create, no matter what tool you use to do it. Avoid the inclination to shape the ends in a triangular or trapzoidal shape - corners tend to fray over time, which is why a semicircle works so well.

In the end, by the way, I'm not sure the comfort harness makes much difference. It really amounts to just a little shoulder padding.

Agreed - and I'm of the opinion (although others frequently have differing ones) that when you put 45 lbs of rig on (single tank - it's worse in doubles), the padding does absolutely no good at all, so it's totally pointless anyway. What DOES seem to help is your wetsuit or drysuit - since exposure protection makes excellent "gel" style padding, it works out better than the wimpy padding on straps anyway... So whether you're using padded straps or not, the rig is quite comfortable.

...Which is why a lot of people dive plain webbing. Doing so also allows for infinite adjustment of both the rig and the D-rings, so having a harness that's more specialized (with sewn-in D-rings and such) is actually LESS adjustable, and no more or less comfortable.

Of course, this is totally counterintuitive, so a lot of "comfort" or "deluxe" harnesses are sold every year.

From your photos, it also appears that the shoulder padding may chafe around your neck - which is what one of my original complaints was about the Freedom plate... Not to bring up bad memories or anything. You'll have to find out for yourself if that happens to you. Maybe I'm just thick-necked.

The crotch strap that came with the harness I've ditched in favour of the separate crotch strap I bought at the same time. Only difference there is a) quick release plastic snap - which I can see probably is helpful and b) only one D ring in front of crotch and I want one at the back too. Oh, and c) it's 1 inch webbing and I'm thinking about crotch rot again

Personally, I'm a fan of the 2-inch super-soft crotch strap that a lot of retailers make... I find the 1-inch webbing prone to "wedgie" at the worst possible moment (especially when scootering or tying off in a current). I also find ANY plastic quick releases to be not only unnecessary, but prone to breakage, especially when they age. And I agree with you on TWO D-rings - one in front (for scootering or a temporary hang point for tools as a commercial diver) and one in back (for spools, reels and such that you're looking to store in a tucked, streamlined place). Again, some may find that they have a different opinion, but that's mine, for what it's worth.

Your photos show a 2-inch crotch strap without plastic quick releases and two D-rings (one front, one rear). That, to me, is my favorite type, assuming that the webbing is soft enough (no resin, large weave). Since you're talking about a 1" strap, did you change this? Why?

Cheers SeaJay and everyone else. Reckon I'm all set to go diving now! My only fear now is that I'll look better than I actually am

J

Hahhahaahahaaa... Well, there's one way to fix that - do a LOT of diving in your new rig. Congratulations on getting it together... We expect a full review when you get it dived!

It's tough to see in your pictures - did you use the Freedom plate channel? If so, is yours painted black?

...And if so, how'd you get the 11" holes to fit on the 9" centers (or whatever the measurement is)?

I'd be really interested to find your opinion of how far the wing extends up past the plate and/or "channel." It looks long - you'll have to let us know if it folds over and causes drag. Does this Oxycheq wing have an integrated STA (rods)?

 

[InTheDrink]

Yowch. Some buckles have wider slots than others - and some webbing is thicker than others. Combine a small slot and thick webbing and... Well... It can be a real pain in the fingers, especially if someone trimmed the webbing "thick" with a "ball" at the end instead of a flat surface.

In the future, when you cut, use your hot knife to flatten the webbing - hopefully that'll help.

Yep, again I agree with what's already been said - the very best way is a "knife" attachment on a soldering iron - or even just a regular soldering iron (just use the pointy end to create your desired cut and shape it) - but I've also had good luck with a good set of stainless steel kitchen scissors (nice cut) and a "blowtorch" style windproof lighter. Cut all of the ends of your webbing in a large semicircle (instead of straight across) and it'll tend to last longer and be easier to doff and don, too. Of course, if you do this, it'll take a few minutes to create, no matter what tool you use to do it. Avoid the inclination to shape the ends in a triangular or trapzoidal shape - corners tend to fray over time, which is why a semicircle works so well.

Half-moon it is so. I'm pretty handy with a lighter, 25 years of practise why wouldn't I be. Will source a sharp scissors somewhere. BTW, was it you or someone else who mentioned a particular type of marker to use when marking out where to cut. I'll likely dive the rig and make the marks of where to cut on the spot, just wondering what type pen you use. I could equally make a nick with my knife indicating starting point I guess.

Agreed - and I'm of the opinion (although others frequently have differing ones) that when you put 45 lbs of rig on (single tank - it's worse in doubles), the padding does absolutely no good at all, so it's totally pointless anyway. What DOES seem to help is your wetsuit or drysuit - since exposure protection makes excellent "gel" style padding, it works out better than the wimpy padding on straps anyway... So whether you're using padded straps or not, the rig is quite comfortable.

...Which is why a lot of people dive plain webbing. Doing so also allows for infinite adjustment of both the rig and the D-rings, so having a harness that's more specialized (with sewn-in D-rings and such) is actually LESS adjustable, and no more or less comfortable.

Of course, this is totally counterintuitive, so a lot of "comfort" or "deluxe" harnesses are sold every year.

From your photos, it also appears that the shoulder padding may chafe around your neck - which is what one of my original complaints was about the Freedom plate... Not to bring up bad memories or anything. You'll have to find out for yourself if that happens to you. Maybe I'm just thick-necked.

Yeah, I'll need to see how the shoulder straps work out. Vis a vis the freedom plate bringing them too close in together, yours was the only review that mentioned anything but comfort so I'm kind of going on that fact. I'll confirm either way once I take it out for a spin.

Personally, I'm a fan of the 2-inch super-soft crotch strap that a lot of retailers make... I find the 1-inch webbing prone to "wedgie" at the worst possible moment (especially when scootering or tying off in a current). I also find ANY plastic quick releases to be not only unnecessary, but prone to breakage, especially when they age. And I agree with you on TWO D-rings - one in front (for scootering or a temporary hang point for tools as a commercial diver) and one in back (for spools, reels and such that you're looking to store in a tucked, streamlined place). Again, some may find that they have a different opinion, but that's mine, for what it's worth.

Your photos show a 2-inch crotch strap without plastic quick releases and two D-rings (one front, one rear). That, to me, is my favorite type, assuming that the webbing is soft enough (no resin, large weave). Since you're talking about a 1" strap, did you change this? Why?

I wasn't sure whether the comfort harness would work out so I got a hog harness and crotch strap too, just to be safe (I'm all about the safety)

The comfort harness crotch strap was not as wide as the hog one and the comfort one had plastic release and buckle so I opted for the hog one (as you could see from the photo I guess)

Hahhahaahahaaa... Well, there's one way to fix that - do a LOT of diving in your new rig. Congratulations on getting it together... We expect a full review when you get it dived!

Coming soon!

It's tough to see in your pictures - did you use the Freedom plate channel? If so, is yours painted black?

BY channel, do you mean the STA like bar that runs for about a foot down the back of the plate and is detachable? If so, no, mine's same colour as the plate - SS.

...And if so, how'd you get the 11" holes to fit on the 9" centers (or whatever the measurement is)?

Can you elaborate? The channel simply attaches via two screws to the plate running central and vertical. Cam bands then run through wing, plate slats and back through wing again. Hey presto! Took all of 30 seconds. But I could be rigging it wrong??? - apart from SB I've been using simple jedi mind tricks to assemble the unit but it's been a piece of piss so far, bar the quick release buckle, which was a bitch

Anyhow, sounds like we're either talking about different things or that the plate you were using was different than what I got???

I'd be really interested to find your opinion of how far the wing extends up past the plate and/or "channel." It looks long - you'll have to let us know if it folds over and causes drag. Does this Oxycheq wing have an integrated STA (rods)?

[/QUOTE]

Extends 2.5 - 5 inches over the plate depending on placement of cam bands.
Question: what would you suggest as an appropriate length of extension and also, where should the wing relative to my person (e.g. centre over lungs? Top slightly over shoulders? etc.). Any guidance here great! Ah the minutiae of these things - bliss!

Re integrated rods on wing - I can't be sure but don't think so. There's a nice valley inside the wing with two sets of two inch anti-roll buds/thingies to keep the tank in situ.

Have attached a couple of close ups to see if this answers your questions better than my words (highly likely!)

Cheers,
J

 

[Deep South Divers]

BTW, was it you or someone else who mentioned a particular type of marker to use when marking out where to cut.

I don't think it was me. I generally make my adjustments in 1/4" increments (5mm) on the dive site and only cut once I'm confident with the rig's adjustments... So I never bother marking anything.

Yeah, I'll need to see how the shoulder straps work out. Vis a vis the freedom plate bringing them too close in together, yours was the only review that mentioned anything but comfort so I'm kind of going on that fact.

Yeah, I thought that odd - and said so, which got blasted by everyone here 'cause it was so different from the others. People (including the maker of the plate!) thought that I had some ulterior motive for saying that in my review! I was called all kinds of names and lamb-basted relentlessly. I can't explain why nobody else mentioned what I found so prevalent (the neck rub), but I figured that it must have been my fault somehow, since I never did get the threading right on the harness.

...Which is odd, 'cause I've been doing this 20-something years - 5 of them professionally - and have several plates of my own that are all different brand names. I also handle all of the plates that my employees own, since I'm generally the resident gear expert here with my company.

...But enough about me and/or my prior review. Every person is different, and you're diving a completely different harness threaded the correct way... You may have totally different results than I did... And it may explain why I had a completely different review than everyone else.

I'll confirm either way once I take it out for a spin.

Sounds great! I honestly hope that the reason for my frustrations with the plate were my own fault - the Freedom plate is a very interesting and unique design, the maker clearly cares about the product a great deal, and the attention to detail and finish on the plate was clearly excellent. We all wanted to see the plate kick some tail.

The comfort harness crotch strap was not as wide as the hog one and the comfort one had plastic release and buckle so I opted for the hog one (as you could see from the photo I guess)

Oh... So you left the 2" on... I'd have done the same. I think you'll find that a much better option than the 1" strap, and enjoy the two D-rings while avoiding potentially problematic quick releases.

...Again, that's just my opinion, but I couldn't agree with your thought process more.

BY channel, do you mean the STA like bar that runs for about a foot down the back of the plate and is detachable? If so, no, mine's same colour as the plate - SS.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. I would have called it a "STA," but Eric (the manufacturer) called it a "channel." Same thing, though... That's what I was talking about.

I asked if it was painted black because in the photos it appears to be black. In the photos, the wing appears to be sandwiched between the STA and the plate, although I understood Eric to say earlier that the wing would be sandwiched between the STA and the tank and that the STA would be directly attached to the plate. This situation created a lot of confusion here in SC, too, and may further explain why we had problems and why my guy apparently wasn't using OEM bolts to affix the STA to the plate.

...Anyway, you mentioned something about getting better photos later. I'd like to see those, if you get the chance, as I'm still not understanding completely how your system differed from mine.

Can you elaborate? The channel simply attaches via two screws to the plate running central and vertical. Cam bands then run through wing, plate slats and back through wing again. Hey presto! Took all of 30 seconds. But I could be rigging it wrong???

No, I think you are rigging it right... I think *I* rigged mine wrong.

Understand that every other plate on the market rigs the same way - only this plate/STA is different. And since it uses similar-looking parts, it never dawned on any of us over here that the rig would go together in a different way than all of the others that we have in the shop.

Based on what you and Eric are saying, it sounds like the "channel" (or STA) is affixed to the plate, and then the wing is sandwiched between the STA and the tank, right? So no bolting the wing to the plate? It's simply held in place with the cam bands (tank straps), right?

Uhhhhh... Yeah, that's not how we did it. That explains a lot.

Anyhow, sounds like we're either talking about different things or that the plate you were using was different than what I got???

Well, I still haven't seen the plate again for the serial number, but that doesn't surprise me. I don't think it was a different brand of plate - I think it was just rigged totally wrong.

I won't know for sure that rigging would have solved my issues, though, until you give your review... So I'm looking forward to it.

Extends 2.5 - 5 inches over the plate depending on placement of cam bands.

Yeah, your bolts don't run through the wing, do they? That's what I'm talking about above.

With a tank in place, then, it should work out just fine. It's funny-looking to my eye since the STA is UNDER the wing... (And why I was asking if the channel was black.) ...Which is why I ask about it folding up on the top. But if you've got 2.5-5 inches from the top of the plate to the top of the wing, it should work great.

Question: what would you suggest as an appropriate length of extension and also, where should the wing relative to my person (e.g. centre over lungs? Top slightly over shoulders? etc.). Any guidance here great! Ah the minutiae of these things - bliss!

Lol.

Well, that's where things get a little weird. Many wings don't allow for an option there - you simply sandwich the wing between the plate and the STA, and run the bolts through the eyelets that you have in the wing. Your Oxycheq has two sets of three holes (with 11 inches between, rather than the 9 inches supplied on the Freedom plate - also a source of confusion), which means that you had the ability to raise the wing or lower the wing about one inch over standard (the center hole in each series was the standard).

...So normally, the answer is, "just use the standard and make the slight adjustment up or down if you feel that your trim is altered when you inflate or deflate." Most people just leave it standard.

With the Freedom plate, if I understand it correctly, when you remove the tank, the wing is not affixed to the plate at all, except for with the cam bands... And there's a lot of play there, so you can sorta choose exactly how you want the wing to sit.

Sounds like a good question for Eric. My answer would be "use the middle hole - the standard one - and adjust if necessary." Since you can't "set" an adjustment there permenantly, I am not sure how he solves the issue.

Re integrated rods on wing - I can't be sure but don't think so. There's a nice valley inside the wing with two sets of two inch anti-roll buds/thingies to keep the tank in situ.

Yeah... I think we're talking about the same thing. One of my guys has an Oxycheq wing... Although it's not a Mach V. I'll look at his and see if we're talking about the same thing.

It sounds like an integrated STA (the rods) are a non-issue, though, if the STA ("channel") is directly beneath the wing, though...



EDIT: I just saw the photos that you added to your above post. Yes, I see that the STA mounts directly to the plate, with the wing sandwiched between the STA and the tank... Totally different from every other system on the market, and completely different from the way that we had our system set up. That also explains why my guy was using different bolts than the OEM ones, which of course added a lot of problems with discomfort.

...And that makes sense why Eric would call it a "channel" rather than a "STA" - 'cause if it's on THAT side of the wing, it's NOT a STA.

J, I think that YOU have the system rigged properly... I think that WE did not. That explains a lot of the issues that we had...

...But before crucifying me and my guys for incorrect rigging, my bet is that any experienced backplate and wing diver is going to do exactly the same thing... Then try to understand how to get 11" holes onto 9" bolts - that are in the plate backwards.

...Certainly I can't be the first person to mention this. I would think that the moment that any diver with backplate and wing experience gets the new plate, he's going to start to rig it and get to a point and go, "WTF??"

 

[InTheDrink]

Cool, so sounds like I've rigged it ok. It was really a lot easier than I imagined but I imagine because I'd never rigged a standard BP/W I had no preconceptions about where to put what - I just put things were they fitted and where they seemed obvious to go. There's a utube video fitting a DSS wing to a Freedom plate which I watched too but really once you realise you just sandwich the wing between plate and tank then hard to go wrong.

I've been wearing the rig around the house a fair bit and it seems to fit very nicely indeed. It's hardly a clinical trial but the plate does seem to feel very snug and comfy and the shoulder straps I don't think will rub.

Thanks for the tips on getting things setup. This Internet diving thing, huh? People slag it off but there's a fair amount of value in getting lots of inputs with slight variations, disagreements & discussions.

Cheers,
John

 

[Deep South Divers]

Cool, so sounds like I've rigged it ok.

I think so too.

It was really a lot easier than I imagined but I imagine because I'd never rigged a standard BP/W I had no preconceptions about where to put what...

Yep, and therein, I think, was my problem. The Freedom plate looks and functions exactly like every other plate on the market, with only a few small but vital differences in rigging. Screw them up, and... Well... The system doesn't work correctly, and it creates all kinds of problems.

I just put things were they fitted and where they seemed obvious to go. There's a utube video fitting a DSS wing to a Freedom plate which I watched too but really once you realise you just sandwich the wing between plate and tank then hard to go wrong.

You know, I think things would have gone totally differently for me if I'd just known that one fact. Unfortunately, it was brought to me already rigged, already rigged like every other bp/wing on the market, and already rigged with non-OEM bolts. What a cluster.

I've been wearing the rig around the house a fair bit and it seems to fit very nicely indeed. It's hardly a clinical trial but the plate does seem to feel very snug and comfy and the shoulder straps I don't think will rub.

That's great news. I sure would like to give this plate a fair shot, knowing what I know now.

Thanks for the tips on getting things setup. This Internet diving thing, huh? People slag it off but there's a fair amount of value in getting lots of inputs with slight variations, disagreements & discussions.

I couldn't agree more. :beer: