"disposable regulators" vs servicing?

[lowwall]

I think I might have figured out why companies like Scubapro are double the cost on their products in the US vs Europe and why they will not sell you parts in the US as opposed to Europe where they openly sell parts to the public.
I had a conversation with a gentleman about airplanes and he explained to me that Cessna had to stop making planes for a while because their insurance ran so high. According to him about half the cost of a new plane went to cover the insurance that the company must have on that plane for the rest of the life of that airplane.
So if you bought a brand new Cessna 50 years ago then Cessna is still paying for liability insurance on that airplane and will until that plane is decomissioned.
I’m just wondering if something similar is happening with regulator companies or if it’s just a money grab?

Nope. These are 2 completely different stories.

Cessna and the other general aviation manufacturers actually got a law called GARA passed in 1994 limiting their liability for older aircraft. It had a short term positive effect, but in the end proved to matter very little in terms of the price escalation of these aircraft.

General Aviation Revitalization Act - Wikipedia

Cessna light plane costs are so high primarily because of the complete lack of economies of scale. Cessna in the 1970s made more single engine piston planes in 10 days than they now make in an entire year.

They are essentially hand made which drives up the labor cost compared to something like a car, but the real problem is they are produced at such a low rate now that the facilities and other fixed overhead costs is greater than the labor + materials costs combined.

ScubaPro prices are double compared to Europe only because they can enforce minimum pricing and resale provisions in their dealer agreements in the US that are against the law in most European countries. They aren't alone in this, Aqualung/Apeks and Mares do it as well, but IMO they deserve the most blame since they are the ones that actually built the prevailing US scuba sales model and the ones that have fought hardest to keep it in place.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Nope. These are 2 completely different stories.

Cessna and the other general aviation manufacturers actually got a law called GARA passed in 1994 limiting their liability for older aircraft. It had a short term positive effect, but in the end proved to matter very little in terms of the price escalation of these aircraft.

General Aviation Revitalization Act - Wikipedia

Cessna light plane costs are so high primarily because of the complete lack of economies of scale. Cessna in the 1970s made more single engine piston planes in 10 days than they now make in an entire year.

They are essentially hand made which drives up the labor cost compared to something like a car, but the real problem is they are produced at such a low rate now that the facilities and other fixed overhead costs is greater than the labor + materials costs combined.

ScubaPro prices are double compared to Europe only because they can enforce minimum pricing and resale provisions in their dealer agreements in the US that are against the law in most European countries. They aren't alone in this, Aqualung/Apeks and Mares do it as well, but IMO they deserve the most blame since they are the ones that actually built the prevailing US scuba sales model and the ones that have fought hardest to keep it in place.

Excellent, thank you!
Back in the day that sales model might have been rock solid for Scubapro, but now there are many regulator companies that are beginning to be more value based and believe in the right to repair. This is chipping away at the Scubapro model.

 

[Centrals]

I will eventually dispose of my Apeks regs bought in 1997. In the mean time I will diligently service it myself.

 

[patgrayjr]

that makes a lot of sense -- but.. do regulators get decomissioned? no FAA equivelincy or actual enforcing agency
I think you're onto something -- maybe worth a thread in the litigation section?

The usual excuse in the US is that people are "lawsuit happy," without a "losing party pays all legal costs" standard that I believe many EU countries have, it's relatively easy for a plaintiff to launch a lawsuit and find a trial lawyer willing to take on the case for free (with the assumption they'll take +50% of any payout). I'd assume this is some element of the dive companies, and I wouldn't put it beyond someone to sue SP or whoever if they flubbed a service and killed their spouse or similar.

However, as others have said we seem to have figured this out with automobiles. While not "life support equipment" it's far more likely a 3/4 ton pickup without brakes due to improper service on the highway is going to harm multiple people, versus an improperly serviced reg.

On the local shop charging me, they said they ordered the kits and disassembled to prepare for their arrival since we had an upcoming trip, and "COVID leftovers" in the supply chain flubbed parts arrival. Not totally unreasonable, but I've had similar experiences with bicycles, construction, cars, etc., where the "professionals" rush a process to deal with volume, versus when I DIY.

I get it that they're probably under pressure to complete jobs and likely understaffed, and I can value my time at $0, but I still don't like it.

 

[rick00001967]

I'm in a similar boat to OP, with the added wrinkle that my son has started diving and potentially one or two of the other kids may start.

My wife and I currently have 20 yo. Oceanic regs, with the infamous "puck" octo which started disintegrating, and which our LDS charged about $300 to disassemble, determine they could not get parts, and then reassembly only my wifes reg now breathes too hard. We figured we'd buy new gear for our 20th anniversary and an upcoming "big trip," but the LDS sells Aqualung and associated brands, and I don't want to go down that road as the company seems to be in trouble.

I looked at Scubapro at another shop, and acquisition/service costs aside, I wonder about convenience and whether the shop would put the time and attention into service that the manufacturer or I would. I've been "in back" at a couple of shops and was not impressed with the service areas. The organization and care certainly don't match the mythology about "critical life support equipment" and "it's nearly rocket surgery best left to professionals."

This all has me leaning heavily towards Deep6. I like that I can just throw them in a box and ship them off where the manufacturer presumably has their stuff together and an incentive to keep the reg performing well, versus driving to the LDS for an indeterminate wait and unknown cost. I also have the option to get DIY, with manuf support, for the price of a course if I decide to take that on, which starts to make more sense if I have 3+ sets to service.

wow. i am amazed that any shop would do that. i would have had some choice words for them and told them to shove their invoice up their.....
and you wonder why the industry is struggling.

i had a similar situation, but not as expensive, many years ago. the shop i bought our two sets of regs from (along with all our other gear) took our regs in for service and then when i picked them up, i was told they could not get parts. so all they did was a bench test. i believe we may have been charge 50 or 60 bucks per set. this is about 20 years ago. i was pretty upset. not by the charge itself, but because they knew when i brought them in that they could not get parts. so why not just be up front and tell me all they could do was test it. i later dismantled myself and found they had not even cleaned them. i was not impressed.

you are in the same boat as many of us. hard to get good service for a decent price so you start to weigh the costs of servicing vs. replacing.

i have found in the past i was able to buy new regs, use them for a few years, sell them for nearly what i paid for them, and then replace them.

the problem is that i switched reg types many times which a lot of divers would not care for. but for the average recreational diver, it should not be an issue.

i am not sure if prices these days would allow me to do the same thing anymore.

self servicing is of course an option as you pointed out. i only caution you to be confident you are a very handy person when it comes to repairs and that you get good training. i went on a reg repair course once. their is actually a lot of things to learn. if you only do the same regs all the time it will become very easy. but when doing multiple sets of various models etc, it can be alot to learn. and also many times requires special tools etc. but in the long run, if you use them a lot, you have multiple sets, and you can get parts, it may be the right way to go.

 

[Mobulai]

I get it that they're probably under pressure to complete jobs and likely understaffed, and I can value my time at $0, but I still don't like it.

Still no excuse for charging a service they didn’t make tbh — that’s just some cosanostra crap
Maybe just charge the price of the service kit they ordered is tolerable; but what kit goes for 300$?
Shops scoff me off sometimes when they see no/low benefit in for them and ask me to look elsewhere

 

[Mobulai]

The usual excuse in the US is that people are "lawsuit happy," without a "losing party pays all legal costs" standard that I believe many EU countries have, it's relatively easy for a plaintiff to launch a lawsuit and find a trial lawyer willing to take on the case for free (with the assumption they'll take +50% of any payout). I'd assume this is some element of the dive companies, and I wouldn't put it beyond someone to sue SP or whoever if they flubbed a service and killed their spouse or similar.

However, as others have said we seem to have figured this out with automobiles. While not "life support equipment" it's far more likely a 3/4 ton pickup without brakes due to improper service on the highway is going to harm multiple people, versus an improperly serviced reg.

On the local shop charging me, they said they ordered the kits and disassembled to prepare for their arrival since we had an upcoming trip, and "COVID leftovers" in the supply chain flubbed parts arrival. Not totally unreasonable, but I've had similar experiences with bicycles, construction, cars, etc., where the "professionals" rush a process to deal with volume, versus when I DIY.

I get it that they're probably under pressure to complete jobs and likely understaffed, and I can value my time at $0, but I still don't like it.

But yeah the US is highly litigatious — 2 years ago the company I worked for got acquired by a big American name; our first onboarding (shoot me) course was about data protection (their data not compliance with some GDRP stuff) ended in “legal action” warnings and examples of ex board members are being sued and subtextual threats (said a literal ex FBI don tommassino type capo)

The 2nd was about export compliance and how to not piss off the DoD/J (rEVOs and Sotis do come to mind, nobody wants that tbh)

6 month later we finally got an onboarding about how to use their internal tools for our day to day stuff
I’m glad I don’t work there anymore

I think the people that live in the US are the bravest souls— they go through all that and still strive, I would have crippling anxiety tbh

 

[Scott G. Bonser]

I am so sorry you had to exprience this

Y'all need need a right to repair revloution in the US, it's happening but slow -- and it's not really trickling down to Scuba gear.
I am not saying it's all fine and dandy in EU, but.. even SP (or their dealers) can't pull something like that over here

this is not strictly regulators, so forgive me being out of forum, but the sentiment still holds:
in January I got a G2HUD computer from ebay; when it arrived it was in dead mode.
I wrote SP and they told me all I had to do is drop it at an affiliated shop around me.
They shop forwarded it SP, they revived it out of deep sleep mode, contacted me for pickup, and charged me 20€ for round trip shipping to Uwatec (switzerland) where it got fixed.
Now mind you I am not the original owner of that computer; none of them were under any legal obligation to honor warranty/service agreements.

Now with regards to regs, they still want you to go through their affiliated authorized dealers; but service kits are available to the public (via retailers not via SP dealers, equivelants in US are DGX and DRIS maybe); so you can still go to a 3rd party or DIY it without crossing into a grey area or putting a shop owner in a tight spot.
Not perfect, but it works -- I buy my kits and do it at home; and the SP authorized dealers (and LDS) rent me the tanks I need knowing I will use that air to tune and check what I just serviced.

If it wasn't for the lack of EU true presence -- and some appreciation on my side for some older SP models -- I would have also been a D6 user; and the next new reg set I aquire probably will be from a company like that (I am already considering a few of the new ScubaGaskets MK10 clone)
But my next reg will probably be an old SP one that I find on some classifieds ad.

Yes, I find the same practice in most all sources of SCUBA parts. The manufacturers are constantly ‘upgrading’ their equipment to be able to sell the latest, greatest, safest gear available for SCUBA diving today. It looks great and when new or relatively new and it performs great…until… Many times the reg owner insists that it just needs a repair and or overhaul, however an experienced service tech can determine whether it is worth saving or not. Nowadays many SCUBA manufacturers use high quality plastics to make their 2nd stages but I have seen some on repair benches that are badly cracked and worn and aren’t worth saving. The techs tell this customers but many in disbelief. Proprietary shops and manufacturers say parts are obsolete and gear is no longer any good.. that’s is not always the case…Oddly many ‘updated’ models that use the same internal parts and the older chromed steel 2nds are still functioning because an experienced tech recognizes their features and knows which modern parts have exact same specifications although newer parts such as ‘phragms might be made from more durable silicone. It takes a knowledgeable person to know this. When I began restoring my vintage gear I did NOT realize this to be the case. I am not an expert by any means but I am still surprised that this can be the case for lots of great ‘vintage’ gear that can be safe to dive with if serviced properly with the correct parts. The difficulty is finding these parts or the trusted service technicians that do this. If you need info, you can DM me and I will try to help where I can.

 

[Scott G. Bonser]

The usual excuse in the US is that people are "lawsuit happy," without a "losing party pays all legal costs" standard that I believe many EU countries have, it's relatively easy for a plaintiff to launch a lawsuit and find a trial lawyer willing to take on the case for free (with the assumption they'll take +50% of any payout). I'd assume this is some element of the dive companies, and I wouldn't put it beyond someone to sue SP or whoever if they flubbed a service and killed their spouse or similar.

However, as others have said we seem to have figured this out with automobiles. While not "life support equipment" it's far more likely a 3/4 ton pickup without brakes due to improper service on the highway is going to harm multiple people, versus an improperly serviced reg.

On the local shop charging me, they said they ordered the kits and disassembled to prepare for their arrival since we had an upcoming trip, and "COVID leftovers" in the supply chain flubbed parts arrival. Not totally unreasonable, but I've had similar experiences with bicycles, construction, cars, etc., where the "professionals" rush a process to deal with volume, versus when I DIY.

I get it that they're probably under pressure to complete jobs and likely understaffed, and I can value my time at $0, but I still don't like it.

That is SO true… so be aware and look for reputable tech and parts sources…

 

[patgrayjr]

Yes, I find the same practice in most all sources of SCUBA parts. The manufacturers are constantly ‘upgrading’ their equipment to be able to sell the latest, greatest, safest gear available for SCUBA diving today. It looks great and when new or relatively new and it performs great…until…

I think (and this is me speculating without any chemical or manufacturing knowledge) that some of the newer "environmentally friendly" materials and manufacturing processes don't last as long. I've seen this in outdoor gear, particularly tents, where coatings and materials that would last a decade now deteriorate in a few years under similar storage conditions. I tried to return a couple tents with "lifetime" warranties that essentially disintegrated, and the manufacturer told me it was due to more environmentally sound materials and that "lifetime" now means about 3 years. Contrast that with a 20-year-old tent from the same brand that's totally intact.

I don't know whether things balance out on a product lasting twice as long but producing significantly more environmental hazards during manufacturing, but it seems like yet another instance of the universal law that "there's no such thing as a free lunch!"