Disclosure of health conditions to dive ops/fitness (thread split

[NYCNaiad]

Why not get better insurance?

I don't see how a difference in what is disclosed affects the financial picture.

In the situations I'm aware of, lying on the pre-dive medical questionnaire allowed the insurance companies to disqualify the divers from all of the wonderful insurance they had had even though the lies had nothing to do with the deaths/injuries.

The divers & their families received no monies from their trip insurance, dive insurance, medical insurance or life insurance...so not only did they have to pay the costs for all the bills, but also ended up with a huge financial burden since the households went from a two-family income to a single family income.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

In the situations I'm aware of, lying on the pre-dive medical questionnaire allowed the insurance companies to disqualify the divers from all of the wonderful insurance they had had even though the lies had nothing to do with the deaths/injuries.

How many situations and can you elaborate? I am very curious - no names just the events and how you know the insurance companies did not pay...
Thanks

 

[NYCNaiad]

How many situations and can you elaborate? I am very curious - no names just the events and how you know the insurance companies did not pay...
Thanks

I am hesitant to include any descriptors whatsoever. I will say that this happened in 3 different situations & I was told by those involved that the insurance companies didn't pay even though lawyers had been brought in to fight this. Considering I have only been diving for 7 years, these are pretty big stats & shocked me that this could happen especially when the lies had nothing to do with what happened.

So for me personally, I made the decision I won't lie on the form & I won't dive if I'm unfit. Over the years, this has meant that I sometimes miss dives & in one case even a whole dive trip. Everyone has to make their own decision of course & what's right for me maybe not be right for others, but it's worth it to me not to put my family or other divers at risk financially, emotionally or physically.

 

[2airishuman]

In the situations I'm aware of, lying on the pre-dive medical questionnaire allowed the insurance companies to disqualify the divers from all of the wonderful insurance they had had even though the lies had nothing to do with the deaths/injuries.

The divers & their families received no monies from their trip insurance, dive insurance, medical insurance or life insurance...so not only did they have to pay the costs for all the bills, but also ended up with a huge financial burden since the households went from a two-family income to a single family income.

I don't believe for a minute that the insurance companies would have paid these claims but for the fact that there was, as you describe it, lying on the pre-dive medical questionnaire.

 

[NYCNaiad]

I don't believe for a minute that the insurance companies would have paid these claims but for the fact that there was, as you describe it, lying on the pre-dive medical questionnaire.

Maybe. Maybe not. But why give the insurance companies yet another excuse to deny the claim?

 

[2airishuman]

Maybe. Maybe not. But why give the insurance companies yet another excuse to deny the claim?

Because I'm not letting them make my lifestyle decisions for me in return for a promise of a brass ring in some possible future.

Insurance companies don't like to pay their claims, and over the last 20-30 years there has been a growing trend of insurance companies of all kinds refusing to pay claims for flimsy reasons. Life insurance, in particular, classifies scuba diving, car racing, and aviation as risky behaviors that make people uninsurable. But they'll deny claims for undisclosed medical conditions or because they conclude the death is suicide (whether it is or not), or for myriad other reasons.

I would invite you to share examples or references that illustrate that misstatements (intentional or otherwise, it's hard to know post hoc) on routine pre-dive medical forms given to dive ops affect insurance coverage. I don't believe it does, but I could be convinced, and I think others would find the conversion useful also.

 

[NYCNaiad]

Because I'm not letting them make my lifestyle decisions for me in return for a promise of a brass ring in some possible future.

Insurance companies don't like to pay their claims, and over the last 20-30 years there has been a growing trend of insurance companies of all kinds refusing to pay claims for flimsy reasons. Life insurance, in particular, classifies scuba diving, car racing, and aviation as risky behaviors that make people uninsurable. But they'll deny claims for undisclosed medical conditions or because they conclude the death is suicide (whether it is or not), or for myriad other reasons.

I would invite you to share examples or references that illustrate that misstatements (intentional or otherwise, it's hard to know post hoc) on routine pre-dive medical forms given to dive ops affect insurance coverage. I don't believe it does, but I could be convinced, and I think others would find the conversion useful also.

While I could cite 3 examples, I don't feel comfortable sharing the specifics as these aren't my stories to share. You'll either have to dismiss what I say or take it on faith that this happened because I say it did. Not sure why someone would lie about this, but anything's possible.

I agree with you that using insurance as a possible brass ring isn't smart. I don't use it that way. And there is no doubt that insurance companies can deny people for bs reasons. But they can also help people in dire straits. I have personally experienced both ends of this spectrum.

However, my point was simply that lying on a form especially just to avoid the hassle of a doctor's note or red tape isn't in my best interest based upon what I know & thought it could be helpful to share this with others who may be unaware of the ramifications.

 

[Dan G]

Because I'm not letting them make my lifestyle decisions for me in return for a promise of a brass ring in some possible future.

Insurance companies don't like to pay their claims, and over the last 20-30 years there has been a growing trend of insurance companies of all kinds refusing to pay claims for flimsy reasons. Life insurance, in particular, classifies scuba diving, car racing, and aviation as risky behaviors that make people uninsurable. But they'll deny claims for undisclosed medical conditions or because they conclude the death is suicide (whether it is or not), or for myriad other reasons.

I would invite you to share examples or references that illustrate that misstatements (intentional or otherwise, it's hard to know post hoc) on routine pre-dive medical forms given to dive ops affect insurance coverage. I don't believe it does, but I could be convinced, and I think others would find the conversion useful also.

I'm not sure anyone is making this argument. I do think creating complications for the people who survive us is our responsibility, however.

If diver X has a medical condition that is under control and the questionnaire asks something to the effect of, "Do you have any medical conditions that would preclude you from diving?" then I can see why diver X would respond, "No." If, on the other hand, the form asks to disclose any medical issues, then I find it problematic to leave that blank. Known medical issues help rescuers/first responders to do their jobs. Putting first responders at greater risk is unacceptable.

All of that being said, I can totally see why someone would leave this information out so they can dive. I am a vacation diver and each day I get to dive is scheduled usually months in advance. I would like to hear if people have had success with communicating with a dive op well in advance and providing them with all of the necessary documentation that illustrates that they are clear to dive. Might this be a good project for DAN?

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Might this be a good project for DAN?

To what end? I am assuming we are all adults here - you may not like the fact that I choose "no" but that is not up to you. It is up to the adult filling out the paperwork.

Given that response - why spend the money and effort on the pre-dive forms - why not fund "free refresher courses"? If you really want to make an impact and make people safer? Seems to me that in the process of providing some "extra free" courses we could impact those that may not understand their limitations.
If you make it free would divers be more likely to sign up and help prevent some accidents / incidents?

I think so...

 

[KeithG]

I would like to hear if people have had success with communicating with a dive op well in advance and providing them with all of the necessary documentation that illustrates that they are clear to dive. Might this be a good project for DAN?

Both of the Caribbean LOB operations we use require us to fill out their forms well in advance and submit them to head office. we also have to carry a copy with us to give to the boat. No opportunity for last minute surprises.

The Bonaire dive op we use does not ask us to provide private personal health details. They just ask us to acknowledge diving can be dangerous. No opportunity for last minute surprises.