DIR and Pony tanks?

[MHK]

How is this related to the purpose and function of a pony bottle?

It's simple.. The pony bottle has only a singular purpose, as you noted, to deliver air. A buddy can deliver air, can free you of entanglement and add a whole host of other value added tasks. So if I have to choose between a pony that can only do one thing, and adds additional failure points, and a buddy that can do the same thing, plus multiple other tasks, then the decision is simple, I go with a qualified buddy..

You mean the exact same piece of gear used as a stage bottle? If this is the case - why do you not do all your deco on your backgas or your buddy's backgas? Why introduce another piece of gear, complete with multiple failure points...etc.

Matt, I'm not sure if you are intentionally missing the point, or if your vantage point is so fixated that you lack the capacity to see the bigger picture. If I'm doing a deco dive, then deco gas is a required piece of gear. If I'm doing a stage dive, then using a stage bottle is a required piece of gear. If I'm doing a recreational dive, then a pony is not a required piece of gear so I leave it home.

Following your line of logic another way. A pony is a redundant air source should you run OOA, and it should therefore be carried on all dives. So why not carry 02 every dive just in case you unexpectedly go into deco since it's "the exact same piece of gear"? Neither 02 for recreational diving nor pony bottles are necessary for the dive, whereas stage gas and deco gas are necessary equipment for deco/stage dives.. The difference is elementary.

Sure they can - depending upon your deco profile of course...I plan my deco dives such that I can complete my deco stops on my backgas in the event of a deco bottle failure. This would not be an option for some profiles of course but certainly some.
--Matt

Why not try planning using your buddies gas in the event of a failure? Why not have a support team in place in case of a deco bottle failure? The differences between how you approach a dive and how I approach a dive are vast, and as such I see why you would appreciate the need for a pony, whereas I choose to more proactively approach problem solving and find that when adopting the DIR system in total I have no need for a pony, but I respect your right to make any decision you'd like..

Regards

 

[MHK]

Why do you learn to do valve drills? Why do you carry two slates for your deco profiles? Why do you carry 2 reels, 2 lights, 2 lift bags?
--Matt

Where in the world did you get the idea that we carry 2 slates? or 2 reels or 2 lift bags??? I think you don't have an adequate appreciation of the DIR system, or the totality of the system, if you think any of us dive with 2 reels, 2 slates or 2 lift bags..

Regards

 

[radinator]

How is this related to the purpose and function of a pony bottle?

Keep in mind that my perspective is from someone who considered and rejected a pony before I ever heard of DIR. I used to do some pseudo-solo dives, and I was well on my way to just getting doubles for by redundant gas. I thought that if I needed the redundancy I would just do it for real. DIFR

You seem to want your pony bottle to handle the problem of "OOA and buddy not around". The DIR answer is that the pony bottle is not the solution, and in fact the added piece of equipment does not address a lot of other problems associated with "buddy not around". So instead of adding gear, solve the real problem which is..."buddy not around".

The DIR people are saying that the "purpose and function" of a pony bottle is to compensate (poorly) for that situation instead of solving the real problem...which again is "buddy not around". So the "purpose and function" of a pony bottle is not even addressing the real problem.

You mean the exact same piece of gear used as a stage bottle? If this is the case - why do you not do all your deco on your backgas or your buddy's backgas? Why introduce another piece of gear, complete with multiple failure points...etc.

Stage bottle: Added only when necessary for a particular dive.
Pony: Added optionally to compensate "just in case" for the situation "buddy not around"

That is a significant philosophical difference.

Sure they can - depending upon your deco profile of course...I plan my deco dives such that I can complete my deco stops on my backgas in the event of a deco bottle failure. This would not be an option for some profiles of course but certainly some.

Having not done deco dives, I would venture that the DIR approach is that if you can do deco for the dive on your back gas, you don't need a stage bottle. The DIR approach is to use a different gas for deco, though. I'll stop here, since I don't know deco.

Back to the general issue, though...

I recently heard the story (from the horses mouth, so to speak) of someone who was pseudo-solo diving (same ocean same day) and got caught in a net, possibly a gill-net because it had very fine filaments. He had a pony bottle and it provided just enough air to get him out of the situation, and ran empty just as he hit the surface from depth with no pauses or safety stop. In fact, he mentioned that switching from the empty main cylinder to the pony at depth provided the mental kick he needed to stop doing what he was doing to free himself, and try a different approach which finally got him free. Until he tried that different approach which changed his position and perspective he never even saw the net, even as he was trying to free himself. So you could say that the pony bottle saved his life. On the other hand, if he was diving DIR, he would have had help to free himself - and probably the extra eyes at a slightly different position would have seen the net before he even got near it.

So, sure, the pony saved his life. But the fundamental problem that needed solving was not the OOG, it was the lack of a team. And THAT problem, still unaddressed even as he strapped on his pony, is what almost got him killed.

Usually a close call like that will have someone readdressing his method of diving. I wonder if on his next dives the change in practices he chooses because of his close call will be to get a larger pony...

 

[MHK]

Now I realize that they are not enough to get you up from 80 feet but it is few extra breaths in case of some failure or if the greenhorn diver is watching the pretty fishes and not his SPG. Not ideal, an extra 80cf of air would be better. I also remember reading "Bent we can fix, dead we can not" so that gets me closer to the surface.

Please read my other comments in this thread as they address several of your other points, but if you still need clarification please let me know.

However, I wanted to take a minute to address the idea about "watching pretty fishes in lieu of your SPG". We come from the point of view that as a team, we know each others approximate RMV's so there really isn't a need for "extra few breathes". Moreover, and more importantly, where is your primary SPG?? If you are relying on your SPG for your pressure, you've already missed a step. That said, one of the reasons we are accused of being militant zealots are because of our strict adherence to the totality of the DIR system. As you correctly noted, diving in a loose buddy team, or a SOB team or some other bifrucation of the system lends itself to the necessity for ad hoc ideas like pony bottles. In other words, it's using unecessary gear to solve for a skill deficiency. Once you start piece mealing the system, then the entire balance is thrown off so what you have is only part of a complete package. If that is the case, I agree, then you need ad hoc inventions to make up for what you left out. To which I offer, why leave it out in the first place?

On a regualr basis we discuss the DIR system, and the discussion point of view is normally along the lines of someone asking why DIR does this or that, and then someone on the DIR side of the equation offers the how's and the why's. But noticeable by it's absence is ANY system, that is offered as a better alternative. In my mind, that speaks volumes..

Regards

 

[Spectre]

Having not done deco dives, I would venture that the DIR approach is that if you can do deco for the dive on your back gas, you don't need a stage bottle. The DIR approach is to use a different gas for deco, though. I'll stop here, since I don't know deco.

Given the confusion and misunderstanding that is running rampant in this thread; let me just correct this statement.

"if you -and your buddy- can deco out on your back gas"

 

[onfloat]

Correct but would you know before hand. Maybe I am missing something but I could not make that assessment in that short of a time. I don't know what it would be like, but to me would be a bit difficult. I guess the answer is abort and hope you dont get another one.. This could ge expensive real quick. Also my fear would be I would not find out he/she is a bad buddy until I need them.

Thanks

Your previous post implied that you and your newly assigned buddy were giving each other the secret handshake that you would both execute your own dive plan once you were in the water. That being said your right it would get expensive if you just kept going on boat dives and wait for someone else to assign you a dive buddy and once you were out there you didn't dive. I'm not saying I haven't done it, but I won't do it again. Take a little time before you go on the boat and find your dive buddy. Maybe do a couple of dry runs of some skills before you get in the water. Talk about what you want to do while your in the water and then execute it. I'm not comfortable enough to just show up and hope I get a good buddy. I would rather pick my own than have someone else pair us up.

 

[lamont]

However for single divers like myself when on a trip would be coupled with whom ever by luck of the draw. I have read about these SOBs (Same Ocean Buddy) sure we are together (wink) as soon as you get below the surface you are separate. I have read that this happens more and more, that is what scares me!

The problem here is that you're explicitly not diving DIR by not having a DIR teammate. I will agree with you that its a real issue, but its an issue which by definition is outside of the DIR system.

At the same time DIR can really help. With rock bottom calcs, SAC rate calcs and dive planning and situational awareness you can pretty much eliminate the issue of you suddenly without warning sucking a tank dry. Since regs are built to fail-safe in a free-flow, what you need in a buddy is someone who you can stay in enough contact with and who has enough gas in their tanks that you can OOA them if your regs free-flow. The biggest hitch there is making sure they have enough gas. Again DIR skills can help because you can also develop a gas plan for your buddy based on conservative estimates of their consumption and their tank size. I've succesfully done this for pickup buddies where I've figured out in advance how many minutes into the dive I'll ask them for their gauge reading and figured roughly how much I expect them to have, and usually I find them flashing me a few hundred psi over what I expect. I can then use that as a benchmark for how long I expect the dive to last and how fast we should get shallow.

Again, though, its outside of the DIR system by definition. DIR skills can help. A pony bottle may be an appropriate answer.

 

[radinator]

Given the confusion and misunderstanding that is running rampant in this thread; let me just correct this statement.

"if you -and your buddy- can deco out on your back gas"

Thanks, Spectre, you are quite correct. Also, I should have said deco bottle for deco, and stage bottle for staging...it's all in what you use it for. Good thing I'm not doing it yet, since I can't get the terms right.

 

[Laser]

On a regualr basis we discuss the DIR system, and the discussion point of view is normally along the lines of someone asking why DIR does this or that, and then someone on the DIR side of the equation offers the how's and the why's. But noticeable by it's absence is ANY system, that is offered as a better alternative. In my mind, that speaks volumes..

Regards

I'm glad you're in this thread Mike.

I am interested in your thoughts as to your recommendations to a newer diver, who just is chomping to get in the water as much as possible. Thinks the DIR philosophy makes total sense. Yet, every time he goes to the quarry, or local charter to get experience, he sees all that is going on there ( you are at quarries all the time. you know what I mean ). Finding a good DIR like minded buddy could be a fruitless search. ( especially one fresh out of a PADI class wanting
Not diving is not an option, so they start adapting themselves to deal with the lack of buddy awareness that they encounter by adding things -- like a pony. Don't get me wrong, I'm a happy guy when I dive with another diver who has at least done the fundies class. We know exactly where each other is at all times, know our gas situation, confident that if we have a failure, it will be an annoyance...etc.
But finding buddies like this can prove difficult. I've had enough dives that I will pass when I don't have a good buddy, but new guys.......?? Thoughts?

 

[Soggy]

Sogman - we are speaking different languages. I believe a diver should have critical redundancy (air supply) for every dive.

So do I...

Diving Cathedral Ledge in the winter with doubles would be a very poor decision.

For those that don't know, Cathedral is a 20-80ft shore dive...easily manageable with a single tank and good team. Heck, I did a 45 minute dive there a few weeks ago down to 75 ft with a single LP72 and still maintained an adequate rock bottom so both me and my buddy could've done a safe ascent if one of us had gone OOG.

A single with a pony represents a good solution.

It solves a problem that doesn't exist....

Two obvious examples of rapid gas loss would include frozen first stage or a blown tank o-ring. The same reasons we learn how to do valve drills. I can't imagine you needed to ask me that question though.

A freeflowing reg provides ample time to get a reg from someone, as would a blown o-ring....This is not the situation I was referring to...I was referring to a sudden and immediate loss of breathing gas...meaning, you go to inhale and get nothing....it doesn't happen like that unless you are a complete goober.

Why do you carry two slates for your deco profiles? Why do you carry 2 reels, 2 lights, 2 lift bags?

I carry NO slates, only wetnotes in my pocket, a primary and 2 backup lights when warranted (the backup lights provide absolutely no additional drag due to their location), 1 lift bag in the backplate pack, so it provides no drag. Occasionally, I'll bring a second safety-sausage style bag, but it goes in a pocket where it also provides no drag.

You don't seem to understand the concept of team resources....you have your team's backups and they have yours.

If your buddy is always an arms length away, as you contend as part of the DIR methodology, why not trust that he will be right there to provide you with all the backup you need?

No you are starting to understand!

You learn the importance of self reliance and dive equipped so you don't have to rely on anyone else. This is why divers use pony bottles. The backup offered by a buddy should be a bonus but not relied upon for safety.

Say it with me, DOUBLES, D-O-U-B-L-E-S.