DIR and Pony tanks?

[drperi1]

Copied from the supplied link:
Pony Bottles
A pony bottle is designed as a separate air supply to be used in an emergency. These units add unnecessarily to the bulk of a diver's equipment. Most divers exploring deeper water or overhead areas opt for the more sound principal of a back-mounted tank or tanks that allow for two first stages to be used. The single tank would have a Y or H valve while the doubles should be configured with a manifold connecting the tanks. In both situations, bulky equipment is reduced while allowing the diver proper management over his air supply in the event of a regulator failure.

So if I hard mounted a 40cuft pony to a single, the bulk issue is avoided and I have a truely redundant system. It may pale to the doubles but exceeds the Y/H configuration. I had hoped to get more of the "Why this is done is..".

CJ

A pony bottle, if I am correct (I use one when I dive solo) is not truly a redundant system- it does not give you enough gas to complete deco stops, get out of overhead environments (or at least, those that create an issue, such as, "Oh,s...!" etc. They are bailout bottles for when, for whatever reason, you have used up your gas supply and are able to go vertical.

I guess you could use a pony in a situation where your stage bottles are set at regular intervals (such as cave diving), but that gives you yet another piece of gear to get "hung up" on- not to mention, manage when you are already tasked fairly heavily.

I only use my pony when I can go verttical without a problem, and. for a myriad of reasons, am diving solo.

"There are old divers and bold divers, but no old, bold, divers".

 

[drperi1]

By George you mean that Irvine guy right? Don't have the DIR-III video, so I asked the question. Could someone give an Ex-marine a synopsis of his comments or a link that works for a non-GUE member.
Thanks,
CJ

www.gue.com gets you in the door. Finding out when classes run, how much they are, etc. is a workout in and of itself.

GUE is Global Underwater Explorerers, with Jeb Jablonsky at the helm. GUE is, from my understanding, a combination of the Hogarthian system (which can be reduced, sorry guys, to "keep it simple, stupid") with the concept that it is easier to stay alive when one knows exactly where one's gear is at all times.

GUE is also built on the caver's concept of redundancy, with an interesting synthesis of redundancy vs. the possiblilty that said redundancy (overdone gear, etc.) can create problems as well as fix them.

The GUE guys are also heavily into "new frontiers" type exploration and gear development.

 

[drperi1]

Whoa. DIR was around before GUE. Read your dive history. The (mostly male) people who were at the forefront of deep diving usually dove solo- the standard concept of a buddy was a body that you had to haul back. Were they right? Can't go back for a replay. If Jim Bowden and Sheck Exley had tried to reach 1,000 feet as a team, instead of as two divers descending and separating, would Sheck still be alive? Or, like the Rouse team (Chris and Chrissy: sad story, excellent divers) would both be dead?

This is in stark contrast to the history of cave diving, which is heavily team-based. Open-water deep divers have adopted a number of the caver's methods, and to some degree, the concept of team-diving is one of those areas that has been incorporated into deep diving. The deep wreck community in my area (Florida) definitely prefers team to solo penetration. However, we go in with stage bottles and doubles, and stay as trim as possible. We don't use ponys for this type of diving.

In my opinion, there is more than one way to Do It Right, and yes, I do respect the GUE group- I'm training with them shortly, and hope to learn caving skills from them (hard to find a cave in the middle of the open ocean!).

P.S.: DIR, in some forms, dismissses divers such as I- 5'3" female, 110 lbs soaking wet. This is based on the concept that I could not carry (or possibly supply) enough gas/equipment to execute a difficult dive plan. How untrue !

 

[jonnythan]

P.S.: DIR, in some forms, dismissses divers such as I- 5'3" female, 110 lbs soaking wet. This is based on the concept that I could not carry (or possibly supply) enough gas/equipment to execute a difficult dive plan. How untrue !

I dunno where that comes from... might I point you to Chickdiver and Skydancer right here on our board..

 

[drperi1]

Which is why it was asked in the DIR section..



While I realize that you don't subscribe to "this thinking at all" as you believe " a human being could never be as reliable as a totally seperate breathing system..."

Had you ever considered that a human being may actually be more reliable? Can a pony bottle do a buddy check? I constantly monitor my buddies gas supply and we frequently communicate our gas supply amongst the team. Can a pony bottle be aware that you are breathing more rapidly then normally? Can a pony bottle recognize a small leak beyond the scope of your view and solve it, or raise your awareness as to it?

The DIR system is about incorporating team protocols into your diving. Once that skill is accomplished, the rest of these type of discussions remain superfalous.. Those that still dive outside the scope of a unified team don't appreciate the benefits because the industry has done a poor job at educating divers in team fashion and gear manufacturers are more then willing to sell equipment to make up for protocols that are left out of the academic curriculm..

Regards

I agree completely. Although I have tried to explain the use of ponys and the solo vs. team concept in my last two postings, I dive solo with a pony as a last resort (I can get into that in another forum, I guess), and only (as I have said before) when I can go vertical. The "buddy system", which tech & longtime divers often dislike, is not quite the same as team diving. When I spearfish, I go with a team, and we subscribe to DIR principles. Not only does a qualified team mate work better than a bailout bottle, your partener(s) are there in a crunch- such as when a bull shark decides he missed lunch (happened last week- all safe & sound, including the bull, excluding the catch).

 

[Diver0001]

Of course this is because, as others pointed out, a pony bottle is attempting to make up for the lack of a team.

Bullseye. It's all about the team....

However,.......

I'd say in defense of Matt that if his buddy is so useless to him that he feels the pony bottle keeps him safer then we should (a) offer our sympathies to him for the level of buddies he's been able to find and (b) we should be open to the possibility that he may, in fact, be better off with a pony bottle.

Matt's scenerio is the classic result of what happens when you can only find same-ocean-same-day buddies. Essentially he's solo diving and to understand him we have to assume (as Matt does) that his buddy will be footsie when he needs him.

Clearly the problem is not the need for redundancy so in a sense he's solving the wrong problem by adding a pony bottle but I know from personal experience that finding good buddies is difficult and finding teammates is nearly impossible for a lot of divers.

So what Matt is suggesting basically boils down to a stop-gap measure arising from the desperation of not being able to get connected with competent buddies (let alone teammates).

And frankly, I agree with him. Assuming the absence of a quality teammate (*now we are no longer talking about DIR but much of the world is, like Matt, confronted with this problem*) other measures may be necessary for redundancy. Personally I would opt for twins but I've never found a stage bottle/pony....whatever..... to be in the way so all the noise about the hazards of such are b.s. if it's slung properly and you know how to use it.

It may not be DIR and it may not even be optimal but it's somehow better than putting your trust in an incompetent buddy.

R..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bullseye. It's all about the team....

However,.......

I'd say in defense of Matt that if his buddy is so useless to him that he feels the pony bottle keeps him safer then we should (a) offer our sympathies to him for the level of buddies he's been able to find and (b) we should be open to the possibility that he may, in fact, be better off with a pony bottle.

Matt's scenerio is the classic result of what happens when you can only find same-ocean-same-day buddies. Essentially he's solo diving and to understand him we have to assume (as Matt does) that his buddy will be footsie when he needs him.

Clearly the problem is not the need for redundancy so in a sense he's solving the wrong problem by adding a pony bottle but I know from personal experience that finding good buddies is difficult and finding teammates is nearly impossible for a lot of divers.

So what Matt is suggesting basically boils down to a stop-gap measure arising from the desperation of not being able to get connected with competent buddies (let alone teammates).

And frankly, I agree with him. Assuming the absence of a quality teammate (*now we are no longer talking about DIR but much of the world is, like Matt, confronted with this problem*) other measures may be necessary for redundancy. Personally I would opt for twins but I've never found a stage bottle/pony....whatever..... to be in the way so all the noise about the hazards of such are b.s. if it's slung properly and you know how to use it.

It may not be DIR and it may not even be optimal but it's somehow better than putting your trust in an incompetent buddy.

R..

While that observation is a valid one, it defeats the purpose of this forum ...

The answers in this forum are member's best attempts to answer questions within, and according the DIR diving philosophy. If you wish to give a non-DIR answer, please do not post it in this forum. If you do not wish your question to be limited to DIR answer, please ask it in another applicable forum.

People come to this forum seeking the DIR solutions to various problems. While there may be other valid solutions to a given problem, if it ain't DIR, it should not be discussed in the DIR forum.

Moreover, when one claims that a given DIR solution is "without logical, rational basis", then one is trolling ... and that's specifically prohibited here.

The purpose of this forum is to discuss DIR methods, not to defend them against a predisposition to alternative solutions. If someone doesn't feel that DIR methods are appropriate for their needs, that is valid. And there are appropriate forums to say so ... this isn't one of them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver0001]

While that observation is a valid one, it defeats the purpose of this forum ...

I know. Actually, if we strictly interpret the purpose of the DIR forum there have only ever been 5 on-topic posts made here.....

Feel free to split the thread and kick it into some other part of the board, Bob. I have no agenda for wanting this post in the DIR part.

R..

 

[HarryH97]

DEL - PM.

 

[RTodd]

And frankly, I agree with him. Assuming the absence of a quality teammate (*now we are no longer talking about DIR but much of the world is, like Matt, confronted with this problem*) other measures may be necessary for redundancy. Personally I would opt for twins but I've never found a stage bottle/pony....whatever..... to be in the way so all the noise about the hazards of such are b.s. if it's slung properly and you know how to use it.

It may not be DIR and it may not even be optimal but it's somehow better than putting your trust in an incompetent buddy.

R..

First, a good diver, particularly some of the people that have responded to this thread, can dive a completely convoluted rig and be much more competent in the water than those advocating a pony in the first place. In all honesty, a stage rigged pony is not that big of a deal to someone who regularly uses deco bottles and stages. So, it is easy to argue that it is no big deal to have. However, a pony is also completely useless to those that could easily tote one.

Second, if you are a good teammate, it is very easy to find other well qualified divers to dive with. If for some reason you happen to live on the moon and there are absolutely none around, it just takes a little effort on your part to cull some of the better candidates from the herd and develop your own solid buddies. The, I do X because no one qualified will dive with me is a weak argument and generally shows that the person stating that has not yet adopted the right attitude for competent DIR divers to be willing to dive with them.