As you start diving regularly you will be able to tell where your pressure is within +/- 100 psi. This will take into consideration, depth, time and work load. I know it seems impossible right now, but trust us, you will be able to do it. As Spectre said - get in the habit of guessing your pressure before you look at your SPG. This is the practice part. If you start diving with a regular buddy or teammate you will also be able to know what his pressure is. Again this takes practice. I dive with half a dozen people on a regular basis and I get real close on knowing their different gas usage. It's intuitive. If you want to add to your mental gymnastics then guess your depth and time before you look at your guage. What I find this has done for me is to make me a much more aware diver. The greater your awareness the fewer the surprises... Alot of this stuff I do in the back of my mind and it takes nothing away from the overall joy of the diving experience. It's pretty cool to feel at one with your environment and other teammates and be in control.UnixSage:
DIR and Pony tanks?
- Thread starter CJ-62
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Matt,
If it is true that you have a single tank based on the environment and require bail-out for emergency (no 'SUFFICIENT' amount of reserves in your tank), what happens at the end of the dive and your teammate in an emergency? You can't give your backup since there's not enough gas in your single tank for the two of you. And if there is enough gas, then why bring the added challenges of a single stage/pony in a recreational environment when it serves no useful purpose? Do you hand over the pony? Rigging it with bolt snaps and handing it off with controlled ascent is an advanced technical diving procedure not even taught in Tech 1. And it's certainly the last thing you want to fuss around with when your teammate is OOA waiting for you to go thru a dozen procedures to deploy it properly. The automatic and autonomic muscle memory response is out of your mouth into theirs and you go to the backup regardless of what is in your mouth (stage, backgas, etc...). I would be hesitant to dive with someone who isn't willing to give me their gas or isn't carrying enough for me. I know I never worry about gas- there's plenty on my back and on my teammate's back. I take care of my teammates by letting them know they can grab out of my mouth my reg anytime at any depth and we can complete the dive together. No need to signal or grab my arm or other touch contact. Just find my face/mask and grab that thingy right below it and breathe, no questions asked. If you were my teammate, how are you taking care of me if I'm in trouble? May I grab from your mouth or do I need to find something in the golden triangle or deploy your pony for me to use? What do I do or am I dead?
This is thread is on the verge of getting closed, so here goes with what you're looking for when it comes to logical, rational basis. If you look at the above scenario, you must have enough gas on your back to execute the appropriate response either single or doubles. Carrying a single with not enough reserve on your back and using the pony/stage/deco as your redundancy does not give you the same rehearsed, automatic response for your OOA teammate (donate what's in your mouth and switch to your backup). That's what leads to the accident - new unnecessary procedures born out of less than ideal equipment, training, or lack of discipline. The pony/stage/deco however you want to call it, can only be added to your rig, after you have a fundamental redundant system. To be consistent with the trained, practiced, rehearsed automatic response, your second tank must be manifoldable and isolatable to execute rapid OOA to your teammate. Now, your third, fourth, fifth bottles can be the pony/stage/deco and can be anywhere (on and off your body) b/c you already have redundancy on your back and can execute the same procedure. You've got to have the fundamentals before moving on to the next building block.
It's amazing to see intelligent thoughtful people try to argue the methods of DIR out of context without training and not being able to see all the checks and balances that exist outside of these "line-item" equipment justifications. Adding a pony/stage/deco without the redundant backgas rig on your back is just like trying to do deco on the fly when you don't know or can't execute the basics of MDL ascents. We don't use tables, or print out deco schedules and stuff that in our pockets. And we sure as heck don't have 2 of it. At least I don't and none of the GUE trained dive partners I dive with do that either. We discuss our dive strategy before we enter and can change any of it on the fly depending on how deep we go and how long we are down there and how much deco gas we've got.
Sincerely,
H2
If it is true that you have a single tank based on the environment and require bail-out for emergency (no 'SUFFICIENT' amount of reserves in your tank), what happens at the end of the dive and your teammate in an emergency? You can't give your backup since there's not enough gas in your single tank for the two of you. And if there is enough gas, then why bring the added challenges of a single stage/pony in a recreational environment when it serves no useful purpose? Do you hand over the pony? Rigging it with bolt snaps and handing it off with controlled ascent is an advanced technical diving procedure not even taught in Tech 1. And it's certainly the last thing you want to fuss around with when your teammate is OOA waiting for you to go thru a dozen procedures to deploy it properly. The automatic and autonomic muscle memory response is out of your mouth into theirs and you go to the backup regardless of what is in your mouth (stage, backgas, etc...). I would be hesitant to dive with someone who isn't willing to give me their gas or isn't carrying enough for me. I know I never worry about gas- there's plenty on my back and on my teammate's back. I take care of my teammates by letting them know they can grab out of my mouth my reg anytime at any depth and we can complete the dive together. No need to signal or grab my arm or other touch contact. Just find my face/mask and grab that thingy right below it and breathe, no questions asked. If you were my teammate, how are you taking care of me if I'm in trouble? May I grab from your mouth or do I need to find something in the golden triangle or deploy your pony for me to use? What do I do or am I dead?
This is thread is on the verge of getting closed, so here goes with what you're looking for when it comes to logical, rational basis. If you look at the above scenario, you must have enough gas on your back to execute the appropriate response either single or doubles. Carrying a single with not enough reserve on your back and using the pony/stage/deco as your redundancy does not give you the same rehearsed, automatic response for your OOA teammate (donate what's in your mouth and switch to your backup). That's what leads to the accident - new unnecessary procedures born out of less than ideal equipment, training, or lack of discipline. The pony/stage/deco however you want to call it, can only be added to your rig, after you have a fundamental redundant system. To be consistent with the trained, practiced, rehearsed automatic response, your second tank must be manifoldable and isolatable to execute rapid OOA to your teammate. Now, your third, fourth, fifth bottles can be the pony/stage/deco and can be anywhere (on and off your body) b/c you already have redundancy on your back and can execute the same procedure. You've got to have the fundamentals before moving on to the next building block.
It's amazing to see intelligent thoughtful people try to argue the methods of DIR out of context without training and not being able to see all the checks and balances that exist outside of these "line-item" equipment justifications. Adding a pony/stage/deco without the redundant backgas rig on your back is just like trying to do deco on the fly when you don't know or can't execute the basics of MDL ascents. We don't use tables, or print out deco schedules and stuff that in our pockets. And we sure as heck don't have 2 of it. At least I don't and none of the GUE trained dive partners I dive with do that either. We discuss our dive strategy before we enter and can change any of it on the fly depending on how deep we go and how long we are down there and how much deco gas we've got.
Sincerely,
H2
JeffG
Contributor
He's got a pony...if he doesn't need it, he will hand it to you.....Assuming he is even paying attention to his buddy...he is self sufficient don't you know.HarryH97:
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matt_unique:Well I have learned a little more about DIR. I thank those who have shared relevant responses.
For the most part, I just don't agree. I have a different philosophy about contingency planning and preparation that existed before I began diving (flying airplanes, boating, etc.) As my experience continues to grow it only reinforces my strong belief in self reliance. Dive as though you are alone and be prepared to solve your own problems. When diving with a buddy it's just gravy.
I have not changed my mind, and I don't think I have changed anyone else's mindI think we will just go around and around with similar responses so I'm off to enjoy some other threads. See you there.
--Matt
I think we won't go round and round ... at least not in this forum. Please read the sticky attached to the top of this forum ... specifically this statement.
NetDoc:
So, based on this comment ...
matt_unique:
It's clear that you are here not to answer questions within, and according to the DIR diving philosophy, but rather to argue the logic and merits of that philosophy.
Therefore, while you're perfectly entitled to post your opinions on these topics, you're not entitled to do it in this forum.
Please observe the rules established for posting here ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
boomx5
Contributor
While I find this thread mildly amuzing, I still have not read a coherant argument for the use of a pony bottle that cannot be overcome by an argument against using one.
MHK
Guest
Laser:
This is an extremely reasonable point, one we hear quite often, and as you suggest, we are all too often at quarry's witnessing scenario's that are less the optimal. How we have suggested to others is by starting pockets of like minded divers and coordinating schedules so they can dive, and practice, with each other. Cities like Austin, Tx., San Diego, Boston, Seattle, Gilboa quarry, have all done an extremely good job at organizing like minded groups that are committed to diving and practising together. There are many other cities that have done the same thing. You see a fair amount of Yahoo groups that set up local lists to help bring a team together. I notice that you live in Chicago, Brandon Schwartz and Scott Wernette are 2 GUE instructors that are relatively close to you, and I consider both of them good friends, so knowing both of them the way I do, I know factually that they are both committed to seeing your area continue it's growth, so I'm confident if you contact them they can help establish a group. Brando & I taught several classes in your area so you may want to contact Janet Janaush [sp?] as her shop is committed to the DIR philosophy. Contact me off list and I'd be happy to come in for a weekend to help jump start the process.
Hope that helps.
Regards
MHK
Guest
matt_unique:
Matt,
I suspect we could go back and forth ad infinim, however I find your position(s) curious. On the one hand, as you suggest above, you accept the premise that there is a finite amount of equipment needed for specific dives, and as a result you "prioritize the gear with you". I agree with that premise, so it seems where we have an impasse is at what point do we part company in terms of "prioritizing". Under the DIR methodology, we believe a qualified dive buddy, diving in a unified team approach, is more valuable then a "pony" bottle. We believe that a qualified buddy can do more then simply "deliver air" in an emergency, therefore we accept the notion that a buddy has failure points but in any reasonable analysis of the risk reward ratio that the addition of a buddy adds more value then the addition of a pony set up.
Lastly, I'm not sure I undertood your comments about deco gas, and it's relationship to your back gas. Did I understand your comments to read that you go into a dive absent deco gas, but save sufficient back gas to deco out with? I don't subscribe to that theory, but admittedly I'm not sure I understood your comments so would you please clarify before I comment? Thanks
Regards,
MHK
Guest
UnixSage:
Your primary pressure gauge should always be in your head. At any given point of a dive you should be in a position to know your remaining psi +/- 200psi. Accordingly, the idea that anyone could be off looking at pretty fishes, and forgetting to check their SPG [ Sumersible Pressure Gauge] misses the point. You should be able to look at all the pretty fishes you want and still be in a position to know your remaining psi.
Let me know how else I can help..
Regards
Laser
Guest
MHK:
Thanks Mike. I took the class with you and Brando at Haigh with Janet a couple years ago, and have a couple solid buddies. I was mostly curious how you would overcome some of the challenges that a new diver will face getting squared away with likeminded buddies.
Folks,
Well, I had several interesting PM conversations and wanted to share the simplicity of DIR procedures and emergency gas, which is what ponies are trying to solve. For those that are GUE trained, this is like beating a dead horse since we routinely train on multiple failures and can easily see the simple solutions and how everything fits together within the much larger context of how we dive.
-From recreational thru technical, the GUE trained diver knows that their backup or emergency gas is on their back and to access that gas, there's a reg bungeed below the chin connected to all that gas. In the most extreme technical dive cases, you have upwords of 300+ cf of emergency untouched gas on your back available under your chin. If you have to use that reg because of a situation with the reg in your mouth (inwater problem that needs fixing, bubbles, etc..) AND the backup doesn't perform, the diver goes to their teammate. Yes, you've got some serious maintenance problems if both your 2nd stages (primary and backup gas delivery) are not functional. But hey, that's what your team mate is there for. You've got at least one (3rd reg) if not two (4th reg) more regs coming at you with plenty of gas.
-The foundation upon which gas management is built around the contingency/ emergency/back-up gas, which is literally on your back and is connected to a back-up 1st stage with a back-up reg. This is fundamentally different from the way non-DIR diving treats contingency gas and its delivery system (ie: as a afterthought add-on, not as a forethought). This may comes as a shocker, but the reg that's in your what's in your mouth is either connected to the back-up 1st stage (single tank) or has it's own 1st stage for redundancy(manifolded doubles, stages/deco). If this is read carefully, this is a paradigm shift from the rest of the diving community, which has it the other way around.
-Because the back gas is your back-up & main supply and has the most amount of gas, there's always going to be two regs connected to that - a long hose and bungee. This is true for singles and doubles. If the long hose fails, go to the bungeed backup.
At any given time, you only manage two regs, what's in your mouth and the reg under your chin, the backup. Not three regs. Every GUE trained recreational diver to the cave/tech diver knows the simple, switch and donate. Again, you'll never manage more than 2 regs - if not in use, the long hose primary is clipped off. This same conditioned response is what prevents accidents or problems or scenarios from getting progressively worse. Routine training in various multiple failures have proven this simple, stupid procedure as effective and a keeper...Unless someone has one better.
Now that we've got the emergency piece figured out with access to the most amount of gas available on your body (what's on your back), what do I breathe as my primary 2nd stage reg? You only have two choices: Back gas (single or double tank),or stage/pony/deco. That is unless you've got wireless gas coming to you. So take your pick... Any choice you make, you are still self-sufficent - switch to the back up when the primary does not perform 100%. Now this doesn't have to be an out of gas situation. It could be free-flow, champagne, poor adjustment on the 2nd stage, etc... Whatever the scenario/issue/problem/situation, you can always go the back-up and try to correct the deficiency in the water at depth. And your teammates as third and fourth options for gas.
If you and your teammates treat your emergency gas and factor that on your back, you will always have three in-water at depth options as a team: 1) Deco/MDL ascent to the surface (ocean), 2) turn the dive (overhead or swimming back to the shore while in the water), or 3) continue the dive (theoretically doable). I am unaware of any other equipment configuration that is simplier (reducing gas management to single SPG, managing just two regs, and giving these types of options). Perhaps someone can do one better. I'm interested in any thoughts and specific equipment configurations to include 'pony-rigs' that is as bullet-proof under any problem/scenario/situation.
Sincerely,
H2
Well, I had several interesting PM conversations and wanted to share the simplicity of DIR procedures and emergency gas, which is what ponies are trying to solve. For those that are GUE trained, this is like beating a dead horse since we routinely train on multiple failures and can easily see the simple solutions and how everything fits together within the much larger context of how we dive.
-From recreational thru technical, the GUE trained diver knows that their backup or emergency gas is on their back and to access that gas, there's a reg bungeed below the chin connected to all that gas. In the most extreme technical dive cases, you have upwords of 300+ cf of emergency untouched gas on your back available under your chin. If you have to use that reg because of a situation with the reg in your mouth (inwater problem that needs fixing, bubbles, etc..) AND the backup doesn't perform, the diver goes to their teammate. Yes, you've got some serious maintenance problems if both your 2nd stages (primary and backup gas delivery) are not functional. But hey, that's what your team mate is there for. You've got at least one (3rd reg) if not two (4th reg) more regs coming at you with plenty of gas.
-The foundation upon which gas management is built around the contingency/ emergency/back-up gas, which is literally on your back and is connected to a back-up 1st stage with a back-up reg. This is fundamentally different from the way non-DIR diving treats contingency gas and its delivery system (ie: as a afterthought add-on, not as a forethought). This may comes as a shocker, but the reg that's in your what's in your mouth is either connected to the back-up 1st stage (single tank) or has it's own 1st stage for redundancy(manifolded doubles, stages/deco). If this is read carefully, this is a paradigm shift from the rest of the diving community, which has it the other way around.
-Because the back gas is your back-up & main supply and has the most amount of gas, there's always going to be two regs connected to that - a long hose and bungee. This is true for singles and doubles. If the long hose fails, go to the bungeed backup.
At any given time, you only manage two regs, what's in your mouth and the reg under your chin, the backup. Not three regs. Every GUE trained recreational diver to the cave/tech diver knows the simple, switch and donate. Again, you'll never manage more than 2 regs - if not in use, the long hose primary is clipped off. This same conditioned response is what prevents accidents or problems or scenarios from getting progressively worse. Routine training in various multiple failures have proven this simple, stupid procedure as effective and a keeper...Unless someone has one better.
Now that we've got the emergency piece figured out with access to the most amount of gas available on your body (what's on your back), what do I breathe as my primary 2nd stage reg? You only have two choices: Back gas (single or double tank),or stage/pony/deco. That is unless you've got wireless gas coming to you.
So take your pick... Any choice you make, you are still self-sufficent - switch to the back up when the primary does not perform 100%. Now this doesn't have to be an out of gas situation. It could be free-flow, champagne, poor adjustment on the 2nd stage, etc... Whatever the scenario/issue/problem/situation, you can always go the back-up and try to correct the deficiency in the water at depth. And your teammates as third and fourth options for gas.If you and your teammates treat your emergency gas and factor that on your back, you will always have three in-water at depth options as a team: 1) Deco/MDL ascent to the surface (ocean), 2) turn the dive (overhead or swimming back to the shore while in the water), or 3) continue the dive (theoretically doable). I am unaware of any other equipment configuration that is simplier (reducing gas management to single SPG, managing just two regs, and giving these types of options). Perhaps someone can do one better. I'm interested in any thoughts and specific equipment configurations to include 'pony-rigs' that is as bullet-proof under any problem/scenario/situation.
Sincerely,
H2
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