DIR and Pony tanks?

[matt_unique]

It's simple.. The pony bottle has only a singular purpose, as you noted, to deliver air. A buddy can deliver air, can free you of entanglement and add a whole host of other value added tasks. So if I have to choose between a pony that can only do one thing, and adds additional failure points, and a buddy that can do the same thing, plus multiple other tasks, then the decision is simple, I go with a qualified buddy..

This is the most direct and succinct answer I have read in this thread yet. I better understand your position.

Your buddy, as part of your dive system then, has more failure points than my pony bottle. All scuba death/accident statistics support human error as the cause by giant margins over equipment failure. This may sidetrack the conversation though....

Matt, I'm not sure if you are intentionally missing the point, or if your vantage point is so fixated that you lack the capacity to see the bigger picture. If I'm doing a deco dive, then deco gas is a required piece of gear. If I'm doing a stage dive, then using a stage bottle is a required piece of gear. If I'm doing a recreational dive, then a pony is not a required piece of gear so I leave it home. ..

I need to understand your definition of "required". Do you do deco dives where you could not complete deco on your back gas should the need arise? Half of what I carry is not "required". I carry this gear for contingency purposes. I apply this in many areas of activity in addition to diving. A life raft is not "required" on my boat but I choose to carry one for contingency purposes. The spare tire carried in my truck is not "required". ????????

I get your point more than I think you understand - I am replying through your logic to try to flush out what I think is an inconsistency or perhaps a belief in a methodology without logical, rational basis.

Following your line of logic another way. A pony is a redundant air source should you run OOA, and it should therefore be carried on all dives. So why not carry 02 every dive just in case you unexpectedly go into deco since it's "the exact same piece of gear"? Neither 02 for recreational diving nor pony bottles are necessary for the dive, whereas stage gas and deco gas are necessary equipment for deco/stage dives.. The difference is elementary...

Is it? All the gear we carry represents a priority we have imposed on the usefulness of that gear. Accidental deco on a recreational dive is less critical a consideration than a backup breathing system. Thus I choose not to carry 02 and I choose to carry a pony (when single tank diving in the winter). An 02 bottle is not necessary equipment for a deco dive should you choose to do your deco with your backgas (assuming we're not talking about backgas that requires travel gas to depth, etc). This is obviously not the best idea so you prioritize taking that gear with you.

Why not try planning using your buddies gas in the event of a failure? Why not have a support team in place in case of a deco bottle failure? The differences between how you approach a dive and how I approach a dive are vast, and as such I see why you would appreciate the need for a pony, whereas I choose to more proactively approach problem solving and find that when adopting the DIR system in total I have no need for a pony, but I respect your right to make any decision you'd like..

Regards

I understand your position here. We approach this contingency vastly different as you point out. I was mistaken about DIR divers using 2 reels, 2 slates, etc. I stand corrected.

--Matt

 

[matt_unique]

Well I have learned a little more about DIR. I thank those who have shared relevant responses.

For the most part, I just don't agree. I have a different philosophy about contingency planning and preparation that existed before I began diving (flying airplanes, boating, etc.) As my experience continues to grow it only reinforces my strong belief in self reliance. Dive as though you are alone and be prepared to solve your own problems. When diving with a buddy it's just gravy.

I have not changed my mind, and I don't think I have changed anyone else's mind I think we will just go around and around with similar responses so I'm off to enjoy some other threads. See you there.

--Matt

 

[Spectre]

There was a question posed on another board about bringing a stage bottle when double aluminums aren't quite enough gas for two dives on a boat. I don't know how well my answer was taken by the person who asked the question, but I bluntly pointed out that he wasn't proposing a stage bottle, he was proposing a pony bottle.

When you sling a bottle, it has not yet defined what it's use is. It could be a stage bottle, it could be a deco bottle, it could be a travel bottle... it could be a pony bottle.

What makes the difference is how it is used. What are the differences between a pony bottle and a stage bottle? It all comes down to procedure. All the pony bottle procedures I've seen miss one -glaring- point. The buddy. Of course this is because, as others pointed out, a pony bottle is attempting to make up for the lack of a team.

I'll get back to that in a second, but let me set something else straight. I'm starting to truely dislike the term "buddy" because like "pony bottle, stage bottle, deco bottle" the term is confused with concepts that look close to the same. You can have a dive buddy, or dive buddies. But the connotation is often taken as is being described here... someone 'else' on the dive with you. The term in the context of this discussion should be "teammate". Some people dive with one or several buddies. I dive as a member of a single "team".

Everything you do needs to be thought through with the team in mind, not just you individually. When diving with a 'pony bottle', the plan is often to go to it if you have a gas problem. Well... what happens if your teammate now has a gas problem? If you have nothing to offer your teammate... you no longer are a team.

The difference between a pony bottle and a stage bottle comes down to procedures. There are procedures in place to handle what happens within the team if there is a problem when the team is on stage bottles. For example, the concept is designed in such a way so that if needed to expediate an egress, the stage bottles can be jettisoned. Another example is that the team-member has his -own- reserve, via his regulator bungied around his neck, to bail out should there be a problem with his stage bottle, allowing him a source of gas while the team can shuffle resources if necessary to expedite the egress. At risk of confusing things, but to help with the example of differences in concepts, this self bailout procedure may not apply to the use of a 'deco bottle', as it is possible the gas on your back is not an option...but a different bailout procedure may exist in the way of another deco bottle. In any event, I can go on and on and on so I'll just stop there.

There are many comments in regards to the speed to get to a pony bottle vs. the speed to get gas from a buddy. Those of you that have such a concern could have a very enlightening experience after taking a cave course. "Take off your mask, take your reg out of your mouth. Follow that line until you feel your buddy, and get gas from him". You will quickly learn that while it may take a little longer, it is -much- better. There is no psychological relief when you contact your pony bottle because your pony bottle can't do **** for you after you touch it, better hope to hell you don't fumble that reg. Your teammate? As soon as you get to them...you're in good shape [and take special note of my use of teammate vs. buddy in that last statement].

The point, however, is that a 'stage bottle' has a specific use, and need, in teams that are prepared for the complications that adding the stage bottle brings. I can't recall any discussion of pony bottles where the complications that are added because of it are truely understood and discussed... it is added almost frivolously to compensate for buddy diving... as opposed to team diving.

Now before people start to accuse me of zealotry, you may want to do a little search here on scubaboard, back when I dove with buddies and thus saw a need for the added security of a pony bottle. I've never once berated a person for deciding to dive with a pony bottle. I've been there, I understand the desire and need. However I also now understand the benefits of diving within a team, and since I reached that point on understanding, I've always chosen being a member of a team over slinging a pony bottle. Until you've actually experienced it... you will be unable to comprehend the difference between buddies and teammates... and thus you'll be unable to comprehend much of what is being said by the DIR proponents in this thread, since the team concept is core to the whole philosophy.

 

[lamont]

Your buddy, as part of your dive system then, has more failure points than my pony bottle. All scuba death/accident statistics support human error as the cause by giant margins over equipment failure. This may sidetrack the conversation though....

There's a large difference between buddy diving and team diving. If all you look at is the buddy diving system where you're just told to enter the water together, stay together and help each other out, without being given any tools to accomplish those tasks, you're going to see a much higher rate of human failure.

 

[Soggy]

As my experience continues to grow it only reinforces my strong belief in self reliance. Dive as though you are alone and be prepared to solve your own problems. When diving with a buddy it's just gravy.

No, you *really* *don't* *get* *it*.

 

[UnixSage]

Please read my other comments in this thread as they address several of your other points, but if you still need clarification please let me know.

I have been folowing closely and yes it is very helpful, thanks to all for taking the time to comment/clairify those of use that are a bit green

Moreover, and more importantly, where is your primary SPG?? If you are relying on your SPG for your pressure, you've already missed a step.

Hmmm, Are you refering to that I should already know how much time I will have given I know my SAC and I properly dived my plan? Or did I mis-use the acronym SPG? I am guilty of using my pressure gague attached to my tank as a indication of how much air I have. I guess you are saying I should know what it is before I look.

That said, one of the reasons we are accused of being militant zealots are because of our strict adherence to the totality of the DIR system.

I would not say it that way, but I will definately give you that you are commited to your beliefs.

I agree, then you need ad hoc inventions to make up for what you left out. To which I offer, why leave it out in the first place?

Hmm but your point is be a zealot and not accept the sitution OK I'll buy that. Thanks.

Your previous post implied that you and your newly assigned buddy were giving each other the secret handshake that you would both execute your own dive plan once you were in the water.

Re-read my post you are right. That would imply that I accepted the terms. It was not my intention.

Take a little time before you go on the boat and find your dive buddy. Maybe do a couple of dry runs of some skills before you get in the water. Talk about what you want to do while your in the water and then execute it.

OK sounds like common sence, I have never been in this position yet so maybe I am making it harder than it is. Of corse I read all the horror stories (bad dives not people dieing) I just have to remember that for every one of those there are 1000s of successful enjoyable dives out there.

The problem here is that you're explicitly not diving DIR by not having a DIR teammate. I will agree with you that its a real issue, but its an issue which by definition is outside of the DIR system.
-SNIP-
Again, though, its outside of the DIR system by definition. DIR skills can help. A pony bottle may be an appropriate answer.

That is a valid point you made and it is an interesting process you outlined. That could work with a bit more pre-planing. I guess I never realized how important that step can be.

Thanks for all the comments... Good Stuff.

 

[Spectre]

Hmmm, Are you refering to that I should already know how much time I will have given I know my SAC and I properly dived my plan? Or did I mis-use the acronym SPG? I am guilty of using my pressure gague attached to my tank as a indication of how much air I have. I guess you are saying I should know what it is before I look.

In another thread where the discussion was in regards to one pressure guage or two, part of one of my posts was the following. It should answer your questions:

[from This thread]

"Now the catch is that you truely need to use your SPG as it should be used; as a backup guage to tell you your left post is on, your isolator is open, and you aren't overly stressed and need to cut back on your dive plan. But that's a leap of faith that takes experience to accept.

So, if you're actually still reading my babble at this point, I'm gonna give you a piece of advice. I'm not gonna tell you to dump your second guage. Keep it. But: For now on, don't look at your SPG to get a number, get a number then look at your SPG to see how it compares. Don't worry about it at first... just guess what you think it should be. You'll be amazed at how fast you start to nail it. After a while you'll notice you subconciously take your mental comfort into account too.... where your 'guesstimate' starts to take into account a nice easy drifting dive, vs. a dark, cold, motoring against current dive.

If you do that, you'll eventually realize that you are using your SPG as a backup, using your brain as the primary, and you'll have the confidence to accept that if somethings gonna happen to take you over the edge, that second pressure guage ain't gonna help you, and really was just a crutch."

 

[UnixSage]

If you do that, you'll eventually realize that you are using your SPG as a backup, using your brain as the primary, and you'll have the confidence to accept that if somethings gonna happen to take you over the edge, that second pressure guage ain't gonna help you, and really was just a crutch."

That shouds neat but guestimateing whle you have depth and time change the consuption rate (to say nothing of the diver changing his/her breathing rate) seems like a bit much to me. But hey I will do it and see what happens, I hope you are right.

When you said dump your 2nd stage what did you mean.. My Octo?

 

[diveh3]

.......... However for single divers like myself when on a trip would be coupled with whom ever by luck of the draw. I have read about these SOBs (Same Ocean Buddy) sure we are together (wink) as soon as you get below the surface you are separate. I have read that this happens more and more, that is what scares me! If I go diving at home in the quarry there will probably be a list of the "usual suspects" that I dive with and trust. So how does one answer this type of "random buddy" situation. I don't think doubles are appropriate or maybe even available for this type of dive (where you get buddied up) so your only option is hope that nothing happens or bring your own.

Hi UnixSage,
I had simular opinions and results when I started diving. After my 1st fundamentals class I kept wondering how I was going to realate team diving to SOB and the usual suspects at the quarry.
Since then I have found regular buddies who have been through formal trianing in this system and regular buddies who have not but understand how the system works and agree with the principles understand team diving.
Normally I would deal with the "random buddy" by screening them during a pre-dive breifing. And share the SADDDD with them.
If I get the "I prefer to solo dive-see ya later" answer I would team up with another diver or two rather than find this out after we splash in. I'ts your choice, No one is going to force you to dive with them.
One of the ideals that intruige me about DIR diving is it's a holistic form of diving. Everything that we carry on a dive we use, everything we use we train with so we are efficient in a stress or task loaded environment to deal with, especially deploying the long hose to an oog diver. I have never seen any form of formal training on how to deploy a pony bottle, let alone a spare air.
Earlier in this thread I read about betting money that in an oog situation your buddy would be faster than a pony. I can share a brief situation of an unexpected oog drill we were doing last weekend. The diver no more than spit his reg out and got his hand up to his neck when he immediatley had the choice of 2 long hoses in his face. He took mine as it was already being pressed against his lips(diving in a team of 3). The point is through always training s-drills I don't even think about it anymore. It's automatic.
I would like to invite you to dive w/us. Your not to far away and we probably train in the same quarries. If your interested, send me a pm. We always dive Wed nights at BSC.
Best,
Dan

 

[Spectre]

When you said dump your 2nd stage what did you mean.. My Octo?

nonono... I quoted that out of a post I wrote last fall. The context it was written was in regards to someone who felt they needed two pressure guages, one for each tank in their doubles.... I just didn't feel like re-writing after spending all night posting in this thread

Tip #1. Start with fixed times. Every 5 minutes check your depth, guess your pressure and look.

It's an awareness and experience thing... it becomes second nature to keep track of where you are in the whole dive.

Of course I should warn you. When you do get to the point where you are using your pressure guage as a backup to your brain, you have to change your thinking. You're no longer checking to see if you got it right, your checking to see if it is wrong... because it could signify a problem.