DIR and Pony tanks?

[matt_unique]

In an ideal world, this would be so. I'm not the sort to toe anybody's party line, and as I repeatedly tell my students, every piece of dive gear ever invented has positive and negative aspects ... it's our job as a diver to consider them and make informed decisions about the gear we choose to purchase and dive with.

That said, I have to tell you that in the past three or so years I've seen examples of everything you mentioned above. Two years ago we had a young DM candidate die because he and his buddy planned their dive around using their pony bottles as part of their gas supply ... and for some inexplicable reason, decided to separate at 60 feet and come back in solo. Problem is, this young man hadn't checked to make sure he could access his pony reg ... and neither had his buddy. So when he needed it, he couldn't deploy it ... and he drowned. These two people were more highly trained than your average divers, and should have known better ... but didn't ... because they'd simply grown accustomed to taking shortcuts. It cost one of them his life.

You don't need to be in an ideal world to have good practices. Everything you described above is all part of the rhetoric that is being repeated over and over again here. If you know how to properly rig a stage bottle then you know how to properly rig a pony bottle. You can't talk about the DIR approved use of stage bottles for deco diving then turn around and say you can't have a pony bottle without entanglement hazzards, regulator flapping behind, air leaking out, etc., etc. You can't have it both ways. I am OK with the answer - "we just believe" - to try to explain it away with examples of those who don't know how to properly rig a bottle is answer avoidance.

I keep saying it, and seeing other people saying it ... and it doesn't seem to make an impression. It's not the gear, it's the mental approach to diving that sets DIR training apart from other training I've taken.

I understand - but the question is about a specific piece of gear.

... But I have seen too many examples of dive shops pushing them as safety devices without fully informing people of their proper use and limitations. I know people who think all you need in order to safely solo dive is to go out and purchase a pony ... and they do so without ever having tried to deploy it. It's a mental game ... and there are always those who think that it's easier to buy a little safety with gear purchases than it is to put in the effort to develop good basic skills. They think they're safe divers because they're wearing a backup device ... without ever realizing that the device is only as good as the ability of the diver to use it properly.

Yes - obviously - all fundamentals here and unrelated to the specifics of why a diver should rely on a buddy's gas supply vs. having your own solution. I have also noticed the use of the word "trust" vs. what I view as "rely" in the DIR responses. I "trust" my buddy will be there if I need to share air. To have no other option, such as a pony bottle, is indeed relying on him to be there.


--Matt

 

[Soggy]

Matt,

You are missing a critical point here. If you need redundancy, bring doubles. If you don't need redundancy, you don't need redundancy. A pony bottle is a kludgy intermediary step that introduces a bunch of problems and solves none. Doubles are the *best* solution to the problem. Why settle for anything less than the best solution?!

The other issue is the concept of learning one way to do something from the beginning and not having to unlearn bad habits. Learning it the right way is learning to dive with doubles and a team to manage gas problems. Learning it the wrong way is to have an OOG situation and immediately start pulling hoses from your slung bottles...which, moving forward, will have gasses that aren't necessarily breathable at the time you need gas. That is a habit that could potentially leave you dead just as fast as drowning, especially when there is tons of breathable gas on your buddy's back (or even your own, with doubles).

Train the instincts correctly from the beginning, and you avoid potential clusters now and in the future.

Can you tell us any advantages that a pony bottle has over doubles? Under what circumstance would you be suddenly and spontaneously out of gas without any foreknowledge?

 

[Soggy]

Hey guys,
I'm guessing that Matt is talking only about recreational dive profiles. Travel gas etc... would not apply here.

But the skills apply forward....

 

[MHK]

I don't think non DIR supporting views are appreciated in this forum but I will leave that to the mods to let me know.

Frankly, I strongly believe the exact opposite. We welcome any view on this forum, however being a DIR forum many posters and lurkers have come to expect that when a question, or problem, is presented that the more experienced DIR divers will provide a DIR solution, coupled with an explanation of how and why. This forum is extensively used to compare and contrast the DIR paradigm against various other diving ideologies, so I would respectfully disagree with you in that opposing views are welcomed. I suspect, what many don't understand however, is that in addition to welcoming opposing points of view, we also take the time to distinguish how and what we do is advantageous over the alternative opinions offered.

Here, in the instant case, we've supplied various reasons why we believe that diving in a unified team is more advantageous then using a pony bottle. It appears as though you don't like the answers we've provided, which is clearly your perogative. That doesn't mean we reject a discussion about your idea, it's that we reject your idea in favor of ours. The difference, naturally being, is that we've studied all sides of the issues and drew our own conclusion as to the advtangeous of a qualified team mate -v- a pony bottle. We wish you luck in your dives that you use a pony..

None of the replies above answer the question as though it were coming from a competant diver with a properly rigged pony bottle who wants a redundant breathing system.

Again, I respectfully disagree and offer that I've asked direct questions in response to the original question. Can a pony buddy monitor a buddy's gas supply? Can a pony bottle notice a leaky regulator? Can a Pony bottle help free a buddy in an entanglement?

In other words, we've considered the bigger picture and arrived at the conclusion that rather then introduce another piece of gear, complete with multiple failure points and potential increase in drag and entanglement hazard we choose a team mate.

In response to your comparison of a "properly rigged pony" -v- a deco bottle and/or stage bottle, I offer this thought for your consideration..

Can the dive be done without a deco and/or stage bottle? If you are doing a staged dive or a deco dive, the answer is NO, these are required equipment to complete the dive. Whereas I would juxtapose the "pony" scenario and ask, can the dive be done without a Pony? In my view, I see no need whatsoever for a pony so I could do the dive absent any "required" equipment so in keeping within the DIR philosophy of "if it's not needed, you don't take it", I'd leave the pony at the dive shop where it belongs and I'd continue to train and practice with like minded divers and dive within the ethos of a unified team..

Does the DIR methodology have an answer for this middle ground? If the answer is "you just have to believe" then that is OK too but if not I have yet to read a direct, rational answer to the question of pony use.

The answer is that there is no middle ground so there is no need for ad hoc solutions. Our holostic system has several protocols built into the system that renders the need for a "pony bottle" useless. We have very specific gas management protocols, we have very specific team protocols, and we have very specific awareness protocols. So, as I've posted earlier in the thread, in order for a DIR diver to be in a position to even remotely consider needing a "pony" he would have had to ignored or violated 3 distinct DIR protocols. Accordingly, if such a diver, or team of divers, lacked that level of awareness it's likely he wouldn't be part of my team..

The pony should serve a very specific purpose - to offer a backup breathing system in the event of primary system failure - to get to the surface (ideally with a safety stop). Matt

You are free to hold that opinion, but those of us that subscribe to the DIR mindset believe that our buddy also serves that very purpose, with the added benefit of being able to help navigate, to help shoot bags, to help call deco, to increase team safety, just to name a few of the added benefits that a "buddy" offers -v- a stagnant "pony" bottle.

Regards

 

[lamont]

You don't need to be in an ideal world to have good practices. Everything you described above is all part of the rhetoric that is being repeated over and over again here. If you know how to properly rig a stage bottle then you know how to properly rig a pony bottle. You can't talk about the DIR approved use of stage bottles for deco diving then turn around and say you can't have a pony bottle without entanglement hazzards, regulator flapping behind, air leaking out, etc., etc.

I think I'm the only one which brought up the "regulator flapping behind" issue and since you've confined the argument to pony bottles slung as a stage, I was trying to be very conscious in my last post to *not* repeat that over and over. If you still consider all the subsequent responses (particularly MHKs) to be 'rhetoric' then we've reached an impasse.

 

[matt_unique]

Matt,

You are missing a critical point here. If you need redundancy, bring doubles. If you don't need redundancy, you don't need redundancy. A pony bottle is a kludgy intermediary step that introduces a bunch of problems and solves none. Doubles are the *best* solution to the problem. Why settle for anything less than the best solution?!

The other issue is the concept of learning one way to do something from the beginning and not having to unlearn bad habits. Learning it the right way is learning to dive with doubles and a team to manage gas problems. Learning it the wrong way is to have an OOG situation and immediately start pulling hoses from your slung bottles...which, moving forward, will have gasses that aren't necessarily breathable at the time you need gas. That is a habit that could potentially leave you dead just as fast as drowning, especially when there is tons of breathable gas on your buddy's back (or even your own, with doubles).

Train the instincts correctly from the beginning, and you avoid potential clusters now and in the future.

Can you tell us any advantages that a pony bottle has over doubles? Under what circumstance would you be suddenly and spontaneously out of gas without any foreknowledge?

Sogman - we are speaking different languages. I believe a diver should have critical redundancy (air supply) for every dive. When boat diving or of course any deco diving I am in doubles. When diving from shore in the winter I am wearing a single with a pony bottle. Doubles are not the best solution for redundancy in every circumstance. Diving Cathedral Ledge in the winter with doubles would be a very poor decision. A single with a pony represents a good solution. Reduced gear weight with the dangerous entry/exit yet you still have your self controlled/managed backup breathing system. This is one example to your first question of an advantage to a pony. Two obvious examples of rapid gas loss would include frozen first stage or a blown tank o-ring. The same reasons we learn how to do valve drills. I can't imagine you needed to ask me that question though.

As evidenced by the thread, of course realizing what forum I am in, not everyone has the same definition of the "right" way. I think learning to trust (aka rely) on your buddy's back gas to solve an air problem is a bad habit best unlearned.

Why do you learn to do valve drills? Why do you carry two slates for your deco profiles? Why do you carry 2 reels, 2 lights, 2 lift bags? (You have commented before on the problems associated with increased drag and SAC rates)....If your buddy is always an arms length away, as you contend as part of the DIR methodology, why not trust that he will be right there to provide you with all the backup you need?

You learn the importance of self reliance and dive equipped so you don't have to rely on anyone else. This is why divers use pony bottles. The backup offered by a buddy should be a bonus but not relied upon for safety.

--Matt

 

[UnixSage]

I am going to chime in here and ask a maybe a basic question, maybe it does not belong here but it does concern this topic. I am a new diver been on a couple of training dives. I am doing my AOW the end of the month (please no flames about how useless these dives are, I am of the opinion that it gets me a few supervised dives and I might learn something).

DIR is thought provoking stuff. I have changed some of my mindset due to some of the things I have read here. That being said the subject of bailout bottle does cause me to be torn. Here is my point, I agree that your buddy is your best backup on several levels no argument here. It has been written that if you need a bailout bottle then you are a bad buddy or your buddy is a bad buddy. That is exactly what I am thinking about. You see from what I can glean, DIR is about honing those buddy skills. The fact that you are part of a team drives that point home, I get it. However for single divers like myself when on a trip would be coupled with whom ever by luck of the draw. I have read about these SOBs (Same Ocean Buddy) sure we are together (wink) as soon as you get below the surface you are separate. I have read that this happens more and more, that is what scares me! If I go diving at home in the quarry there will probably be a list of the "usual suspects" that I dive with and trust. So how does one answer this type of "random buddy" situation. I don't think doubles are appropriate or maybe even available for this type of dive (where you get buddied up) so your only option is hope that nothing happens or bring your own. That is why the really small ones like spare air (please don't stone me) are inviting to me because I can take it with me and add it to any rental situation. Now I realize that they are not enough to get you up from 80 feet but it is few extra breaths in case of some failure or if the greenhorn diver is watching the pretty fishes and not his SPG. Not ideal, an extra 80cf of air would be better. I also remember reading "Bent we can fix, dead we can not" so that gets me closer to the surface.

I have had this same conversation with a more experienced diver and he was of the opinion that this is a waste of $$. Given the fact that his wife is his buddy I would agree.

Do you think my position holds water, or am I being too cautious? Thanks for taking the time to read.

 

[onfloat]

I am going to chime in here and ask a maybe a basic question, maybe it does not belong here but it does concern this topic. I am a new diver been on a couple of training dives. I am doing my AOW the end of the month (please no flames about how useless these dives are, I am of the opinion that it gets me a few supervised dives and I might learn something).

DIR is thought provoking stuff. I have changed some of my mindset due to some of the things I have read here. That being said the subject of bailout bottle does cause me to be torn. Here is my point, I agree that your buddy is your best backup on several levels no argument here. It has been written that if you need a bailout bottle then you are a bad buddy or your buddy is a bad buddy. That is exactly what I am thinking about. You see from what I can glean, DIR is about honing those buddy skills. The fact that you are part of a team drives that point home, I get it. However for single divers like myself when on a trip would be coupled with whom ever by luck of the draw. I have read about these SOBs (Same Ocean Buddy) sure we are together (wink) as soon as you get below the surface you are separate. I have read that this happens more and more, that is what scares me! If I go diving at home in the quarry there will probably be a list of the "usual suspects" that I dive with and trust. So how does one answer this type of "random buddy" situation. I don't think doubles are appropriate or maybe even available for this type of dive (where you get buddied up) so your only option is hope that nothing happens or bring your own. That is why the really small ones like spare air (please don't stone me) are inviting to me because I can take it with me and add it to any rental situation. Now I realize that they are not enough to get you up from 80 feet but it is few extra breaths in case of some failure or if the greenhorn diver is watching the pretty fishes and not his SPG. Not ideal, an extra 80cf of air would be better. I also remember reading "Bent we can fix, dead we can not" so that gets me closer to the surface.

I have had this same conversation with a more experienced diver and he was of the opinion that this is a waste of $$. Given the fact that his wife is his buddy I would agree.

Do you think my position holds water, or am I being too cautious? Thanks for taking the time to read.

You always have option one. Don't dive. Nobody says you have to enter the water and if you don't have confidence in the buddy you have, what are you doing in the water?

 

[matt_unique]

.....

Again, I respectfully disagree and offer that I've asked direct questions in response to the original question. Can a pony buddy monitor a buddy's gas supply? Can a pony bottle notice a leaky regulator? Can a Pony bottle help free a buddy in an entanglement?

How is this related to the purpose and function of a pony bottle?

.....
In other words, we've considered the bigger picture and arrived at the conclusion that rather then introduce another piece of gear, complete with multiple failure points and potential increase in drag and entanglement hazard we choose a team mate.

You mean the exact same piece of gear used as a stage bottle? If this is the case - why do you not do all your deco on your backgas or your buddy's backgas? Why introduce another piece of gear, complete with multiple failure points...etc.

.....
In response to your comparison of a "properly rigged pony" -v- a deco bottle and/or stage bottle, I offer this thought for your consideration..

Can the dive be done without a deco and/or stage bottle? If you are doing a staged dive or a deco dive, the answer is NO, these are required equipment to complete the dive.

Whereas I would juxtapose the "pony" scenario and ask, can the dive be done without a Pony? In my view, I see no need whatsoever for a pony so I could do the dive absent any "required" equipment so in keeping within the DIR philosophy of "if it's not needed, you don't take it", I'd leave the pony at the dive shop where it belongs and I'd continue to train and practice with like minded divers and dive within the ethos of a unified team...

Sure they can - depending upon your deco profile of course...I plan my deco dives such that I can complete my deco stops on my backgas in the event of a deco bottle failure. This would not be an option for some profiles of course but certainly some.

--Matt

 

[UnixSage]

You always have option one. Don't dive. Nobody says you have to enter the water and if you don't have confidence in the buddy you have, what are you doing in the water?

Correct but would you know before hand. Maybe I am missing something but I could not make that assessment in that short of a time. I don't know what it would be like, but to me would be a bit difficult. I guess the answer is abort and hope you dont get another one.. This could ge expensive real quick. Also my fear would be I would not find out he/she is a bad buddy until I need them.

Thanks