DIR and Pony tanks?

[MHK]

I think this question boils down to whether you subscribe to the DIR methodology.

Which is why it was asked in the DIR section..

Right off the GUE website in reference to pony bottles: "In the event of an out-of-air emergency, you have your redundant back up swimming nearby--your buddy. A good buddy will be there. If he's not a good buddy--one of your most important "gear choices" was VERY BAD!!!"

I personally don't subscribe to this thinking at all. A buddy, as a human being, could never be as reliable as a totally seperate breathing system mounted on your rig that could be reached in total darkness with no communication or delay. Not even a single fin kick is required to access this breathing system.

Not a DIR flame - I will take a good idea from any source - I just don't buy it. I think the original question comes down to what you believe.

While I realize that you don't subscribe to "this thinking at all" as you believe " a human being could never be as reliable as a totally seperate breathing system..."

Had you ever considered that a human being may actually be more reliable? Can a pony bottle do a buddy check? I constantly monitor my buddies gas supply and we frequently communicate our gas supply amongst the team. Can a pony bottle be aware that you are breathing more rapidly then normally? Can a pony bottle recognize a small leak beyond the scope of your view and solve it, or raise your awareness as to it?

The DIR system is about incorporating team protocols into your diving. Once that skill is accomplished, the rest of these type of discussions remain superfalous.. Those that still dive outside the scope of a unified team don't appreciate the benefits because the industry has done a poor job at educating divers in team fashion and gear manufacturers are more then willing to sell equipment to make up for protocols that are left out of the academic curriculm..

Regards

 

[onfloat]

One of the core tennants of the DIR system is that we dive as a unified team. You indicate that you are a former Marine, and I've been fortunate enough to have several former Marines as students of mine, and out of all of the students I've taught, it was the Marines that seemed to appreciate the benefits associated with unified team diving, and standardization amongst the team, more then any other group of divers I've taught.

Semper Fi and Amen,

 

[HarryH97]

I think this question boils down to whether you subscribe to the DIR methodology. Right off the GUE website in reference to pony bottles: "In the event of an out-of-air emergency, you have your redundant back up swimming nearby--your buddy. A good buddy will be there. If he's not a good buddy--one of your most important "gear choices" was VERY BAD!!!"

I personally don't subscribe to this thinking at all. A buddy, as a human being, could never be as reliable as a totally seperate breathing system mounted on your rig that could be reached in total darkness with no communication or delay. Not even a single fin kick is required to access this breathing system.

Not a DIR flame - I will take a good idea from any source - I just don't buy it. I think the original question comes down to what you believe.

--Matt

Normally, I don't entertain this, but I'm trying to kill some time down here in SoCal. Let's see-doing gas switch typically takes me 15-25 seconds-full correct procedures. flashing lights and getting a reg typically ranges from 5-20 secs. In low vis to no vis, the team formation automatically readjusts on the fly to the conditions and would be tight or in touch contact, and I'd just grab the reg from my buddy's mouth and he'd go to his back-up...somewhere between. 1-5 sec. If the vis is good, we'd swim to each other...15-20 sec perhaps? Do the math, hmm...

Let me guess, the "PONY" is turned-on, and it's already deployed, and it's bungeed. Then, why not H or Y-valve and have that back-mounted with all your gas on one SPG or just manifold it? Or you say the buddy is not around, hmmm, rule #1? All roads lead back to the darkside...

Sincerely,
Harry

 

[OE2X]

MHK - glad to see you back. Your input and advice is always appreciated around here.

 

[matt_unique]

...
While debating against the DIR system of diving in this forum is not allowed, honest questions leading to a better understanding about why things are done the way they are by DIR divers is.....

I am probably close to crossing that line so I'll PM on this topic. Don't mean to crash the DIR party....this is your forum. I think the team concept pushed by DIR is a good one. None of the replies against the pony accurately (or even reasonably) address what I suggest. Execute a team dive plan; buddy checks, communication, awareness, rigged and practiced to share your gas supply, etc., etc. but be prepared for self sufficiency so there is no reliance on the team for something critical such as breathing gas.

--Matt

 

[Soggy]

Execute a team dive plan; buddy checks, communication, awareness, rigged and practiced to share your gas supply, etc., etc. but be prepared for self sufficiency so there is no reliance on the team for something critical such as breathing gas.

No one is arguing against gas redundancy, just that a pony bottle is a terrible way to accomplish it. If you need redundant gas, you need doubles, not a kludgy pony bottle.

 

[notabob]

I'd bet you a large sum of money that I can get gas faster from my buddy than you can from your pony bottle....

Hmm... How much money are we betting here?

 

[MHK]

but be prepared for self sufficiency so there is no reliance on the team for something critical such as breathing gas.

--Matt

Matt,

This is one of the most often misunderstood concepts respecting DIR. Many people that don't fully understand the DIR ideology mistakenly assume that since we subscribe to a unified team concept, that we do so to the exclusion of self-sufficiency. Nothing could be further from the truth. We all practice and train on our skills so we are totally self-sufficent but we then take that self-sufficient set of skills and incorporate them into a team philosophy. The age old adage of the chain only being as strong as the weakest link is true. We all train and practice so that all of the links are strong, and in so doing the chain is that much stronger.

Specifically, with respect to the OOA scenario under discussion and the resulting pony bottle issue, under a DIR ideology the individual diver would need to be remiss in monitoring his air supply, then his buddy will also need to be remissed in monitoring his buddy's air supply, they would both need to have violated our Rock Bottom gas management protocols, and they would both have had to fail in their team diving protocols for a pony to even be remotely considered. That said, if my buddy is that lackadasical in his diving habits, then the use of a pony is the least of his problems and would likely not be part of a DIR team to begin with..

Regards

 

[Soggy]

Another thing I don't see people understanding is that the whole concept of being SURPRISED that you have run out of gas is absurd. Unless you are a complete moron, you don't just swim along and try to take a breath and have nothing there. Even with a catestrophic failure, you'd *know* you were going to be out of gas soon.

The only time something like that could happen is on initial descent if a valve was only partially opened or closed, which is something that should be caught in your buddy check anyhow and would occur at a very shallow depth.

 

[matt_unique]

Matt,

This is one of the most often misunderstood concepts respecting DIR. Many people that don't fully understand the DIR ideology mistakenly assume that since we subscribe to a unified team concept, that we do so to the exclusion of self-sufficiency. Nothing could be further from the truth. We all practice and train on our skills so we are totally self-sufficent but we then take that self-sufficient set of skills and incorporate them into a team philosophy. The age old adage of the chain only being as strong as the weakest link is true. We all train and practice so that all of the links are strong, and in so doing the chain is that much stronger.

Specifically, with respect to the OOA scenario under discussion and the resulting pony bottle issue, under a DIR ideology the individual diver would need to be remiss in monitoring his air supply, then his buddy will also need to be remissed in monitoring his buddy's air supply, they would both need to have violated our Rock Bottom gas management protocols, and they would both have had to fail in their team diving protocols for a pony to even be remotely considered. That said, if my buddy is that lackadasical in his diving habits, then the use of a pony is the least of his problems and would likely not be part of a DIR team to begin with..

Regards

I don't think non DIR supporting views are appreciated in this forum but I will leave that to the mods to let me know.

Your summary above (as do many of the replies above) assume the lowest common denominator in terms of awareness and preparation. It's as foolish as the anti-DIR rhetoric DIR divers complain about. Diving a pony without knowing the gas contents, diving a tank without an SPG, regulator trailing behind the diver venting gas, divers who use a pony to extend bottom time, divers who breath their primary tank dry as though they had not monitored and planned in advance, divers who cannot access the valves on their pony, etc., etc. Come on guys - all of that is nonsense in the context of the original question. None of the replies above answer the question as though it were coming from a competant diver with a properly rigged pony bottle who wants a redundant breathing system. If you ask a DIR diver why you would want doubles over a single with a Y/K valve for example you would hear that the Y/K valves offer no protection from a blown tank o-ring among many other reasons. (There are many other benefits to doubles which I do not need to list here as an acedemic exercise). When you apply this logic to divers who wish to address this shortcoming by way of a pony, who do not need doubles for relatively shallow recreational profiles, the DIR answer often changes to the rhetoric I referenced above. Does the DIR methodology have an answer for this middle ground? If the answer is "you just have to believe" then that is OK too but if not I have yet to read a direct, rational answer to the question of pony use.

The pony should serve a very specific purpose - to offer a backup breathing system in the event of primary system failure - to get to the surface (ideally with a safety stop).

--Matt