Deep Air?

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OrangeCountyScuba

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Location
Orange County
# of dives
I just don't log dives
I was curious to see if there are any agencies or groups out there that still believe diving deep air. I know that many prior to the standardization and/or faith in trimix were nervous about moving away from deep air since that is what was the "norm". Also, someone diving deep air would have to contest a large amount of nitrogen narcosis, prolonged decompression, and should not dive past about 219 feet, if following the 1.6ppO2.
Just curious about deep air since I was not diving at the time trimix was introduced and at this point the industry and agencies alike use trimix with little thought now because it has been "proven" to be safer etc etc. Any thoughts?
 
There was a long thread on SB about a 'Narcosis Management' course run by one of the agencies. I think it was TDI (??). Basically, it was a deep air bounce dive course... as you might imagine, it was very heatedly debated.
 
What's deep?
FFESSM (and FSGT, probably ANMP as well) and CMAS.ch, respectively France, Switzerland still teach air to 60m (180ft?).

DevonDiver, I believe you mean PSAI narcosis management (up to 70m or so?). If I'm not mistaken TDI doesn't teach air further than 55m (extended range)
 
Ya, as mentioned, TDI has the extended range course and PSIA has the narcosis mgnt course. I think most agencies are stating to come around that there are some big drawbacks to deep air and some pretty simple solutions.
 
@DevonDiver
Ya, I can imagine that was not a civil conversation. Was the thread called "Narcosis Management"? Saw your correction, thanks.

@Patoux01
That is a fair question. I suppose that would depend on the agency. IMHO, you take a PADI or NAUI course and those OW divers are technically certified to 130feet. While I understand any reasonable instructor would tell their student that you should not go that "deep" until they have the proper training, personally I feel that if one was to go 130 feet on air, they will definitely have some if not a lot of narcosis to deal with.(again the words some and a lot are relative to each person, so I will not try to quantify that at all) I guess I will leave the description of deep up to the individual, so this discussion does not get influenced by a particular agency.

I suppose that I am just wondering if there are any agencies or "diehard" deep air guys that for whatever reason refuse to utilize mixed gas that has at this point become pretty "standard" in the industry.
 
My guess would be that there's a fair few divers who make deep air dives due to the high cost or limited availability of helium. I'd also guess that they'd rather be using trimix, all things being equal.

For a diver to prefer deep air diving..... well, they'd have to be pretty "diehard". They certainly couldn't blame their preference on a lack of available training or education...
 
I was curious to see if there are any agencies or groups out there that still believe diving deep air. I know that many prior to the standardization and/or faith in trimix were nervous about moving away from deep air since that is what was the "norm". Also, someone diving deep air would have to contest a large amount of nitrogen narcosis, prolonged decompression, and should not dive past about 219 feet, if following the 1.6ppO2.
Just curious about deep air since I was not diving at the time trimix was introduced and at this point the industry and agencies alike use trimix with little thought now because it has been "proven" to be safer etc etc. Any thoughts?

Well, in terms of agency standards, I have a TDI cert that certifies me to dive to 55m (180ft) on air. I make frequent dives to 50m (165ft) on air, as do several of my buddies.

That said, there are days that one (or more) of us get really narced. We do these dives pretty much every week, and they are fairly routine for us, but for some reason you'll be fine one day and bonked out of your skull on another.

That's an uncertainty factor. I'm also Trimix certified and if I needed to do anything productive at those depths or if there was more at stake than turning a dive because you were as "stoned as a shrimp" (as the Dutch would say) then I wouldn't even consider doing those dives on air. For example, we dive a similar route much of the time and the line we follow involves a sharp right turn at one point. I had made that dive dozens, if not 100 times before on air, and by God the first time I did it on Trimix the turn seemed out of place because I couldn't remember ever making that turn to that degree before.

R..
 
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@DevonDiver
Ok cost being one factor makes sense economically but in real practice not the smartest idea? Yes, I also agree that you would really have to be a die hard since there is easy access almost anywhere in the world for training. That being said there happens to be a trend in the industry that everyone has a very definitive line to what is safe and not safe, perfect example is the current back and forth with SM. So I just assumed that there must be some people who stand by ONLY AIR!!! haha.
@Diver0001
Thanks for the info, it would be interesting to actually do a study to figure out the susceptibility to being "narced" and the variabilities even within an individual from day to day. I wonder though, why do you feel that it is ok or safe or whatever, to do dives to 165ft all the time? By your own admission, you say if you need to be productive you would rather use trimix, what are you doing on your dives when you are using air that deep? Believe me I am not trying to put you down or back you into a corner just purely interested in the rationale behind what you do.
 
@Diver0001
Thanks for the info, it would be interesting to actually do a study to figure out the susceptibility to being "narced" and the variabilities even within an individual from day to day. I wonder though, why do you feel that it is ok or safe or whatever, to do dives to 165ft all the time? By your own admission, you say if you need to be productive you would rather use trimix, what are you doing on your dives when you are using air that deep? Believe me I am not trying to put you down or back you into a corner just purely interested in the rationale behind what you do.

It would be an interesting study. As someone with a fair amount of experience with the phenomenon I would say that there isn't much logic to why you get more narced on one day than another. At least I don't personally see any logic to it at all.

As for doing these dives, I'm going to give you full disclosure and open up a can of worms in the process.

The answer is "we like it". I've been diving deep since I learned to dive in 1984. At that time, the 200ft "bounce dive" was a sort of "coming of age" in the area were I was living. From the very beginning I liked to have "a little water above my head". I never set out to be a "deep diver" and frankly I still don't see myself like that. I'm just another guy doing what I like to do. There is no ego behind it. I've made an awful lot of deep dives but there is no other reason for me to do it other than that I like it.

In our case (me and my friends) we're talking about a number of divers from the local tek community who are all highly experienced, well trained and ... even if you don't believe it ... risk aware. None of us smoke. None of us are drinkers, none of us do drugs. But we've found each other because we all like the narc.

That's the honest truth. I'm sure I'm going to get a load of **** dumped on me now but that's the truth.

As for thinking it's "safe". I can say with some degree of certainty that if safety were my only concern that I would make all of those dives with Trimix. Nothing, not even the costs, would hold me back from doing that. It's a choice. It would also make those dives a lot less "challenging".... "boring" even.

I would also be the LAST person to suggest that anyone should emulate that example. I make my choices for me. I never EVER talk about my deep diving escapades with students and I never EVER suggest that anyone should aspire to dive deeper than their own comfort zone. I have NO opinion, positive or negative, about diving with Trimix at 30 metres (which is the DIR norm) and no reservations at all in admitting that if safety is your only concern, that what we do is ... well ... kind of daft.

Nevertheless this is what we like to do. We make probably 50 or 60 of these kinds of dives a year. I've been technically certified since 2002 so you can add up how much time we spend doing this.

Is it conforming to modern "norms"? No.
Is it DIR? No. It's one of the many reasons I'm not DIR even though you couldn't see the difference if you looked at how I dive.
Is it wise? No... probably not.
Is there any reason to NOT do it? Yes.
Would I accept it if my daughter (who is a regular dive buddy) did it? Given enough time, training and experience.... yes, I would.

There.

Give me a min to put on my fire-proof undies before you reply.

R..
 
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