deep air

[MXGratefulDiver]

So is SCUBA , if you haven't received training first.
So is diving Trimix, if you haven't received training first.
So is Cave Diving, if you haven't received training first.
And yes, so is diving Deep Air, if you haven't received training first.

No ... there is a difference.

Deep air training only gives you skills to mitigate the effects of narcosis ... not eliminate them. And because narcosis affects everyone differently, I don't buy the argument that deep air diving ... even with training ... is for everybody.

I don't, personally, WANT to drive drunk ... no matter how "skilled" I can become at doing it.

Sorry if you don't like the analogy ... but I've known far too many people over the years who use the same arguments for doing just about anything while impaired. Yes, I will admit that with sufficient practice your brain adapts to the condition ... but deep air training doesn't reduce or eliminate the effects of narcosis, it only helps you learn how to function while narced.

That may be fine for you, but for the vast majority of divers ... even "technical" divers ... it's probably not a very good idea ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

No ... there is a difference. ...Deep air training only gives you skills to mitigate the effects of narcosis ... not eliminate them. And because narcosis affects everyone differently, I don't buy the argument that deep air diving ... even with training ... is for everybody.

I haven't suggested it's for everybody. If you want to dive caves, you get trained to do so. That doesn't mean that the risk is removed; it isn't. The risk is however, greatly reduced when you compare it to diving caves without any instruction.

Your statement: "Deep air training only gives you skills to mitigate the effects of narcosis ... not eliminate them" is correct. Equally so, Cave training only gives you skills to mitigate the effects of risk ... not eliminate them.

Given the cave environment that you've purposely placed yourself in, some would call it foolhardy and irresponsible. The fact that I don't feel this way, makes me wonder why a technical diver would not see the similarity with the risks of diving deep air. At least in the case of deep air, you have control of the narcosis in-that you can eliminate it at anytime by ascent; something a cave diver can't easily do.

In deep air you can eliminate the risk (narcosis) by changing your breathing gas.
In cave diving you can eliminate the risk by not going into the cave.

Diving is inherently dangerous. The only thing that is a variable for the diver is:

1/ What level of risk does s/he wish to assume?
2/ At what level of diving experience does the diver start doing the chosen activity (cave diving, deep air, etc.)?
3/ What level of training does the diver complete before undertaking this activity?
4/ To what degree of difficulty is it undertaken?

I don't, personally, WANT to drive drunk ... no matter how "skilled" I can become at doing it.

Personally the word drunk doesn't work for me when it comes to diving; as I've never been drunk in open-water. If someone was diving or driving drunk, I would think this to be irresponsible. If they had one drink, irresponsibility shouldn't be an issue.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I haven't suggested it's for everybody. If you want to dive caves, you get trained to do so. That doesn't mean that the risk is removed; it isn't. The risk is however, greatly reduced when you compare it to diving caves without any instruction.

Your statement: "Deep air training only gives you skills to mitigate the effects of narcosis ... not eliminate them" is correct. Equally so, Cave training only gives you skills to mitigate the effects of risk ... not eliminate them.

Given the cave environment that you've purposely placed yourself in, some would call it foolhardy and irresponsible. The fact that I don't feel this way, makes me wonder why a technical diver would not see the similarity with the risks of diving deep air. At least in the case of deep air, you have control of the narcosis in-that you can eliminate them at anytime by ascent; something a cave diver can't easily do.

In deep air you can eliminate the risk (narcosis) by changing your breathing gas.
In cave diving you can eliminate the risk by not going into the cave.

Diving is inherently dangerous. The only thing that is a variable for the diver is:

1/ What level of risk does s/he wish to assume?
2/ At what level of diving experience does the diver start doing the chosen activity (cave diving, deep air, etc.)?
3/ What level of training does the diver complete before undertaking this activity?
4/ To what degree of difficulty is it undertaken?

Personally the word drunk doesn't work for me when it comes to diving; as I've never been drunk in open-water. If someone was diving or driving drunk, I would think this to be irresponsible. If they had one drink, irresponsibility shouldn't be an issue.

The issue for me has everything to do with impairment. Unless you are a physical anomaly, diving deep on air impairs your mental faculties. Certainly you can adapt. Certainly you can learn to function while impaired. That's the purpose of deep air training.

But you are still impaired.

Cave diving doesn't inhibit your brain's ability to function normally. Your analogy holds up in this respect ... the biggest part of cave training is learning how to make good decisions. And the biggest part of deep air training is learning how to make good decisions. Where it doesn't hold up is that the former is making up for a lack of knowledge, while the latter is making up for a reduced ability to think straight.

I can only speak from my experience ... not yours. My experience is that diving deep without helium impairs my ability to make good decisions. Training and experience will not change my physiology ... it will only give me more familiarity with motor skills that will enable me to mask the fact that my brain isn't at a performance level I would like it to be.

Getting back to your analogy, all the cave training in the world wouldn't help if I were to dive in a cave at 150 feet on air. I could have the best cave diving skills in the world, and my brain would still be impaired.

I don't choose to dive that way. I truly don't care what you choose to do. I'm sure you can handle it .. based on the evidence of your experience. But I strongly believe that for the vast majority of people reading this thread, diving in that manner would not be a very prudent thing to do ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hank49]

I'm going to have to try cold water diving and see the effects of narcosis relative to warm. The cold water divers seem the most adamant about not diving deep air so there must be something to it.
But here, it's not really an option. I've never dived anything BUT air...not even nitrox. I never give it a second thought. Narcosis? so? I did a dive to fetch a fish out of a shallow cave a couple weeks ago after I shot it free diving. Never had a depth guage or computer but my 100 foot stretch (120?) floatline, 18 feet of shooting line and 20 feet of stretched bungee line were stretched tight straight down. I got into the little cave, was breathing hard pulling on my spearshaft and got a bit narced...stopped, breathed slow and continued until I got the fish out. Used half tank of air...did a 5 min safety stop and got back on the boat.
It's not even a second thought here. Buying helium would have cost more than the spearshaft and floatline I was trying to save. All my buddies in the Philippines and here would do the same and deeper. In my experience, only Scubaboard cold water divers have the strong argument against it.
MUst be the cold water.....

 

[DCBC]

I strongly believe that for the vast majority of people reading this thread, diving in that manner would not be a very prudent thing to do ...

I believe that your decision is the correct one for you. As to others, I would point-out that with experience and training they can increase their "air diving envelope." The ability to dive deep air safely is undeniable, as evidenced by divers who have attested to this on this thread and many major diving certification agencies that offer deep air programs.

 

[DCBC]

In my experience, only Scubaboard cold water divers have the strong argument against it. MUst be the cold water.....

The opposition lives (and I assume dives) in water that's a fair bit warmer than what I do.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm going to have to try cold water diving and see the effects of narcosis relative to warm. The cold water divers seem the most adamant about not diving deep air so there must be something to it.

I think environment has a great deal to do with most of the things we find to "argue" about on ScubaBoard. We can all only relate to our personal experiences. And those are shaped by the environment in which we dive.

I've gone deep on air in Bonaire (120) and Indonesia (137) without noticing any impairment at all. That doesn't mean it wasn't there ... but rather that I didn't notice it. Those depths in Puget Sound are always noticeable for me.

So what makes the difference? Perhaps it's the water temperature ... but I suspect the limits on visibility and the fact that you're so much more encumbered by gear (hood, gloves, drysuit, etc) are also, if not the greater, factor.

I think these discussions would be much more fruitful if everyone simply related their own experiences, in the environments in which they experienced them, rather than making blanket statements about what works ... or should work ... or shouldn't work ... for everyone. Positions like that may make for a lively discussion, but I think they tend to lead us down ratholes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

I do think cold water and more importantly, low visibility play a role. I simply won't go below 100fsw in the Pacific Northwest without helium, because I had a couple of very unpleasant cautionary lessons about doing that. But I have been to 130 in Hawaii (don't do it any more, mind you) and been perfectly happy. I'm quite sure I was addle-pated, but nothing come up that required me to think so everything went well.

What drew me into this thread was not that people are saying they have trained and gotten experience to dive deep air okay THEMSELVES. What got me in here was DCBC's pretty adamant stand that one SHOULD train on deep air before being allowed to do the same dives on mix. Personally, I think that is extremely bad advice. I'd honestly rather see a relatively inexperienced diver at 150 on mix than me at 150 on air. Yes, mix will "let" a diver get to greater depths with less experience than in the "good old days". Yes, that may sometimes be a bad thing. But holding the position that all people wanting to do deeper dives should train through impairment to somehow "earn" a clear head just doesn't sit well with me at all.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What drew me into this thread was not that people are saying they have trained and gotten experience to dive deep air okay THEMSELVES. What got me in here was DCBC's pretty adamant stand that one SHOULD train on deep air before being allowed to do the same dives on mix.

Likewise ...

I see no difference between the position that everyone should dive deep air vs the position that no one should.

Both seem like pretty rigid and dogmatic positions ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hank49]

If mixes were as readily available as air, I would use them. It's not a choice of gas here, it's a choice to dive or not. Maybe if I ever do dive mix I won't dive air again the way I have all along. maybe....