deep air

[dumpsterDiver]

I smoked an awful lot of pot ... and consumed a lot of other sensory-altering substances ... during the 20+ years of my Deadhead lifestyle. I learned to function well enough in that condition to develop a pretty good career as a technical writer ... as well as doing things like skiing and sailboat racing at a fairly competitive level.

However, it never affected my lack of tolerance for alcohol ... nor do I think it has any impact on my ability to deal with narcosis today (although admittedly I've been straight now for almost 20 years).

Somehow I doubt that an adapted tolerance to one has much of an affect on your tolerance to another ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Does anybody believe a pothead?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Does anybody believe a pothead?

Well ... to quote my former favorite band ... "Believe it if you need it, if you don't just pass it on" ... :cool2:

Then again, I believe they were talking about thick air ... not deep air ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[firstdive2005]

Somehow I doubt that an adapted tolerance to one has much of an affect on your tolerance to another ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks for the story, I'm pretty sure God was hootin' when he created the ocean life forms and just get a load of all them colors......

What I was referring to about tolerance was not the abilitly for my physiology to change in adaptive form but for my mental ability to adapt. In other words, high is high, except I dont feel lazy and I dont feel urges to raid the fridge. I do feel comfortable and confident when at depths greater than 130fsw and on 21. Maybe I have the old syndrome still, I used to play pool better when blitzed. Or so I thought.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I think these discussions would be much more fruitful if everyone simply related their own experiences, in the environments in which they experienced them, rather than making blanket statements about what works ... or should work ... or shouldn't work ... for everyone. Positions like that may make for a lively discussion, but I think they tend to lead us down ratholes ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

having been below 150 on air once, it's not an experience I care to repeat. Not for any reason ... training or otherwise. Therefore I don't see myself adapting.

It may be fine for you, or any number of other people. It's not fine for me. I don't like it ... and since I dive for recreation I see no reason to do something down there that I don't like.

At 150 I was barely able to function.Bob (Grateful Diver)

I didn't go below sixty feet for my first few hundred dives. My OW instructor drilled rules into my head. When I finally began diving deeper I did so in small increments. After about 700 dives I began training for deep air diving. I made a few hundred deep dives and the only times I ascended early due to narcosis was on very dark dives or when I had to move the anchor and chain at depth. I later learned to handle CO2 narcosis by stopping, taking a couple of deep breaths and relaxing. I have also found that when I've been apprehensive about a dive in any way I tend to feel narced earlier. The more I dived deep air, the less apprensive I felt, and the less narcosis effected the dive.
The dives I've made on trimix showed me the difference between handling narcosis and eliminating it, however I don't make enough money to dive mix very often. When I dive deep air I make relaxing dives. I don't swim around, run lines, do drills nor math problems on a slate. I've found that by going slow and relaxing, narcosis has been barely noticeable.
It took me years and a lot of dives to be able to enjoy deep air. I wouldn't judge it nor anyone's choices based on one bad dive.

 

[gcbryan]

I think these discussions would be much more fruitful if everyone simply related their own experiences, in the environments in which they experienced them, rather than making blanket statements about what works ... or should work ... or shouldn't work ... for everyone. Positions like that may make for a lively discussion, but I think they tend to lead us down ratholes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

...
That may be fine for you, but for the vast majority of divers ... even "technical" divers ... it's probably not a very good idea ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Based on one bad experience is not rational grounds for determining what's good for the vast majority of divers is it?

Really, I think drunk driving is off point. No one is doing anything comparable to hurling down the freeway at 60 mph in a 2,000 piece of metal while drunk. To me that analogy speaks of a weak argument. It's often used of course but it's not a great argument.

I don't know if you need to experience deep air before trimix. I do know that it's not accurate to imply that only Thal, DCBC, and less than a dozen people here on SB can function on deep air.

Due to their experience I'm sure they can do many things at a level beyond the average diver on SB. That much is probably fair to say.

Most anyone can function on deeper air, within reason, just as most anyone can do anything else related to scuba diving.

Almost all problems in this regard are when people don't do it progressively. I'm sure there is some variability among individuals but the case against deep air is certainly overstated on SB in particular.

I'm sure you realize that the events that have taken place at Lobster Shop Wall aren't really much of a test case for or against the progressive use of deep air.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I didn't go below sixty feet for my first few hundred dives. My OW instructor drilled rules into my head. When I finally began diving deeper I did so in small increments. After about 700 dives I began training for deep air diving. I made a few hundred deep dives and the only times I ascended early due to narcosis was on very dark dives or when I had to move the anchor and chain at depth. I later learned to handle CO2 narcosis by stopping, taking a couple of deep breaths and relaxing. I have also found that when I've been apprehensive about a dive in any way I tend to feel narced earlier. The more I dived deep air, the less apprensive I felt, and the less narcosis effected the dive.

For sure! Absolutely! Your mental state definitely affects your predisposition to narcosis. But so does physiology ... and in that respect we're all different.

The dives I've made on trimix showed me the difference between handling narcosis and eliminating it, however I don't make enough money to dive mix very often. When I dive deep air I make relaxing dives. I don't swim around, run lines, do drills nor math problems on a slate. I've found that by going slow and relaxing, narcosis has been barely noticeable.

And that's good risk management. A man's got to know his limitations ...

I think I know mine. I won't push them based on financial considerations. If I can't afford the mix, I'll choose a different dive plan.

It took me years and a lot of dives to be able to enjoy deep air. I wouldn't judge it nor anyone's choices based on one bad dive.

Good advice ... and I try not to judge other people's choices based on my own. When I did that 154-foot dive (on EAN25), I had about 1,700 dives ... at least three or four hundred of which were below 100 fsw in Puget Sound or around Vancouver Island ... which is where I mostly dive. It's cold, dark, and dealing with currents is common.

I try to gauge my limits ... and express my opinions ... based on what I've experienced. I am aware that at least one person involved in this conversation considers me a newbie (and has said as much elsewhere on ScubaBoard) ... but at about 2,500 dives I think I have a pretty good idea what my limitations are ... and how I can best deal with them.

The only part of this conversation I disagree with, in general, are the occasional comments that divers should be "required" to dive deep air before learning trimix. I can't see the logic in that sentiment at all. I prefer diving with a clear head. If I can't mitigate the impairment, I don't need to do the dive. That's my choice. Why should I be "required" to do something I'm not comfortable doing? That's as objectionable to me as the "no deep air" sentiment is to others in this discussion.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Based on one bad experience is not rational grounds for determining what's good for the vast majority of divers is it?

Gray ... I really take offense at the inference. Nowhere in this conversation have I made any attempt to "determining what's good for the vast majority of divers". You've taken my words completely out of context to make a point you KNOW wasn't the one I was making. Please don't talk to me about weak arguments ... you just made the classic one by making that statement.

Dude, you owe me an apology.

Really, I think drunk driving is off point. No one is doing anything comparable to hurling down the freeway at 60 mph in a 2,000 piece of metal while drunk. To me that analogy speaks of a weak argument. It's often used of course but it's not a great argument.

It's a good argument in this respect ... drunk driving, like narcosis, is a mental impairment. In both cases you have slowed reflexes, a reduced ability to recognize an oncoming problem, and a reduced ability to think through a rational response in a timely manner. That's what the classic narcosis tests are intended to point out to you in deep diving courses.

Nobody's suggesting that you can't adapt to the impairment ... and I've known many drunks who are equally adept at adapting to the impairment ... but they're still impaired.

You are choosing to mix two issues here ... the impairment and the adaptation to impairment. They are very different things.

I don't know if you need to experience deep air before trimix. I do know that it's not accurate to imply that only Thal, DCBC, and less than a dozen people here on SB can function on deep air.

That's not what I implied at all ... I implied that their decades of experience give them the background to have adapted to impairment very well. Less experienced divers may surely adapt ... but probably not to the same degree.

As I KEEP SAYING ... we're all different. Nobody can tell someone else what's right or wrong for them. Some of y'all seem to be taking the same stance you're objecting to ... which is to say that everybody SHOULD BE able to adapt to deep air.

I don't agree.

Due to their experience I'm sure they can do many things at a level beyond the average diver on SB. That much is probably fair to say.

And that's all I said.

Most anyone can function on deeper air, within reason, just as most anyone can do anything else related to scuba diving.

That's where we disagree ... and where YOU become the one "determining what's good for the vast majority of divers".

I'm sure you realize that the events that have taken place at Lobster Shop Wall aren't really much of a test case for or against the progressive use of deep air.

Of course not. Do you honestly think I'm that stupid? Could you possibly be any more condescending?

Please ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gcbryan]

Gray ... I really take offense at the inference. Nowhere in this conversation have I made any attempt to "determining what's good for the vast majority of divers". You've taken my words completely out of context to make a point you KNOW wasn't the one I was making. Please don't talk to me about weak arguments ... you just made the classic one by making that statement.

Dude, you owe me an apology.


It's a good argument in this respect ... drunk driving, like narcosis, is a mental impairment. In both cases you have slowed reflexes, a reduced ability to recognize an oncoming problem, and a reduced ability to think through a rational response in a timely manner. That's what the classic narcosis tests are intended to point out to you in deep diving courses.

Nobody's suggesting that you can't adapt to the impairment ... and I've known many drunks who are equally adept at adapting to the impairment ... but they're still impaired.

You are choosing to mix two issues here ... the impairment and the adaptation to impairment. They are very different things.


That's not what I implied at all ... I implied that their decades of experience give them the background to have adapted to impairment very well. Less experienced divers may surely adapt ... but probably not to the same degree.

As I KEEP SAYING ... we're all different. Nobody can tell someone else what's right or wrong for them. Some of y'all seem to be taking the same stance you're objecting to ... which is to say that everybody SHOULD BE able to adapt to deep air.

I don't agree.


And that's all I said.


That's where we disagree ... and where YOU become the one "determining what's good for the vast majority of divers".


Of course not. Do you honestly think I'm that stupid? Could you possibly be any more condescending?

Please ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Lobster Shop seems to get brought up frequently in these contexts and has no bearing on them so that's why I mentioned it. I don't see it as being condescending at all.

Regarding the apology...if you are offended I apologize.

I'm stuck at home with sciatic nerve issues (back) this week so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Lobster Shop seems to get brought up frequently in these contexts and has no bearing on them so that's why I mentioned it. I don't see it as being condescending at all.

Regarding the apology...if you are offended I apologize.

I'm stuck at home with sciatic nerve issues (back) this week so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I lost a friend at Lobster Shop Wall. He never should have died. He never should have even been attempting that dive.

It had NOTHING TO DO with deep air. It was a pure and simple case of stupidly following the advice of someone he trusted ... someone with greater experience who told him that everything would be OK.

He didn't die because of the air he was breathing ... he died because of the air he didn't take with him, the plan he failed to think through, and the fact that in the end he valued someone else's life more than his own.


I hope you're feeling better soon ... we need to go diving. I know a nice, shallow dive where there's a lot happening right now. We can both agree to dive "shallow air" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gcbryan]

...
I hope you're feeling better soon ... we need to go diving. I know a nice, shallow dive where there's a lot happening right now. We can both agree to dive "shallow air" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I wish I was underwater right now (no weight on the spine).

I hear you're the Pied Piper of Redondo this days regarding the Lumpsuckers! Hopefully they'll stick around for a bit.