Deep Air - Here we go again....

[DCBC]

Then why not go to a commercial diving forum? You clearly know everything, and it's becoming obvious that the rest of us aren't going to listen to your expertise.

There would seem to be a few closed-minded people here, but I have also encountered many others who can discuss a topic in a civil way. I respect many of the members on SB, whether I always agree with them, or them with me isn't important. They have made me look at some things differently and people have thanked me for my contribution. I suppose that's what focused discussion is about. Not everyone is here to be counter-productive.

 

[JeffG]

I feel you do your students a disservice but stating that nitrogen narcosis is something that can be trained around when so much literature says that just isnt true.

Well, the truth is...he didn't invent the idea. Its old school thinking.

Law of Primacy

They either move into the 90's or not.

 

[DCBC]

What you seem to not want to acknowledge is that just like peoples tolerance of alcohol people have varying levels of nitrogen narcosis tolerance. YOU may be able to work up to preform a 200 ft dive on air but your dive student A may not be. Many studies show the amount of denial that people will display in the face of nitrogen narcosis. Student A may be fine on his deep dive to air and may state that he is not narced but one day when bad things start to happen on a deep dive on air he might learn really quickly how much of an impact nitrogen narcosis is really having.

People will continue to dive deep on air for all the reasons you listed as everyone has to make their own risk assessment but I feel you do your students a disservice but stating that nitrogen narcosis is something that can be trained around when so much literature says that just isnt true.

Some excellent quotations, thanks. I'm quick to acknowledge that there are varying levels of nitrogen narcosis tolerance. This is dependent upon each individual. However, every individual can be trained to recognize what this tolerance is and be more aware of its effects.

I am not making the suggestion that nitrogen narcosis can be trained around. What I'm saying is that a student can be taught to recognize the symptoms early and assess the level of its effect. In this way, he can thumb the dive before it goes too far.

What I am saying is that there are Deep Air programs that are run by various organizations. These programs can pass on real skills that will help a diver cope and are not intended to promote a macho attitude. Deep air has its limitations that are largely dictated by the individual. Knowing what these limitations are cannot be assumed, nor should the student just go and try to find out without proper instruction.

 

[nadwidny]

What I am saying is that there are Deep Air programs that are run by various organizations. These programs can pass on real skills that will help a diver cope and are not intended to promote a macho attitude.

Have you ever taken one of these? I did the IANTD version about 14 years ago. It was just "take the student down to 180 because that is what the standards demand". A couple of dives in the 130-150 range, a couple in the 150-180 range, boom...done. A little bit of classroom that talked about Tom Mount's "experiment". Hardly an effective means of developing any real skills or helping a diver learn to cope.

Hal Watts has his program but really, why bother? If one has the experience to take a course on diving impaired, then they have the experience to learn to dive He mixes.

 

[DCBC]

Have you ever taken one of these? I did the IANTD version about 14 years ago. It was just "take the student down to 180 because that is what the standards demand". A couple of dives in the 130-150 range, a couple in the 150-180 range, boom...done. A little bit of classroom that talked about Tom Mount's "experiment". Hardly an effective means of developing any real skills or helping a diver learn to cope.

Hal Watts has his program but really, why bother? If one has the experience to take a course on diving impaired, then they have the experience to learn to dive He mixes.

The value of a training course is often dependent upon the Instructor that teaches it. Hal is an experienced Deep Air diver, who I would have thought would run an excellent program. If you wish to discount the value of this type of training because of your experience, that's your prerogative.

 

[liuk3]

While I do love my helium and trimix for deeper dives, I do believe that DCBC has tried to constructively offer his alternative perspective to deeper dive training. I've often wondered myself how I would personally tolerate the narcosis in diving air to deeper depths (> 150fsw), but I've never had the opportunity to do so nor do I see myself experimenting with it. I think that it is just a different philosophy to teaching and diving. It may not be congruous with my own training regarding technical diving, but I do respect his right to his own personal point of view.

 

[lobstah]

Deep air has its limitations that are largely dictated by the individual.

If this is how you sell it to your students I would expect all the macho types will make it a point of honor to be in the top of narcosis tolerance in their class. I think you are deluding yourself that presenting it this way will create responsible divers who will treat narcosis with respect it deserves. I think it will create deep air cowboys who will be on mission to go deepest until they seriously scare or kill themselves.

And why on earth you choose to push that controversial agenda on a public scuba forum is beyond me. I know of no driving instructors who would pontificate that drunk driving is manageable and cheaper (no need to call a cab), even if they privately think they can handle it.

 

[ucfdiver]

It may not be congruous with my own training regarding technical diving, but I do respect his right to his own personal point of view.

I don't respect it because we've lost dive sites because of it. We nearly lost Eagles Nest, Mystery Sink is lost for good, and there's other sites. Deep air is unfair to those who don't nickel rocket, and do things the safe way.

The most recent END related death at Eagles Nest cost lots of money for the body recovery and countless hours that the recovery team had to spend away from their family. If the family of the deceased would like to pay *all* expenses, trimix, time off work, gas, support divers, sheriff's office staff, increase in insurance for dive site owners, etc, I would be more tolerant of it, but that never happens.

 

[JeffG]

I think that it is just a different philosophy to teaching and diving. It may not be congruous with my own training regarding technical diving, but I do respect his right to his own personal point of view.

No one said he didn't have right to his own point of view.

Its just that some of us don't agree with his. The fact that he is an instructor puts it at a different level vs "just another diver"

Deep air is not evil. In some places, it might be the only way. (either that or not dive) But under no circumstances is it a better way. (Mind you even DCBC doesn't say its better, but he doesn't hold helium to the same regard as others)

Its a matter of degrees on where you draw the line and the risk you want to take.

But he does play the "I'm a commercial diver and my balls are made of steel" card way to often promoting the use of deep air.

 

[DCBC]

If this is how you sell it to your students I would expect all the macho types will make it a point of honor to be in the top of narcosis tolerance in their class.

I don't sell anything. As to macho types, many people make judgements on groups of individuals. Take "technical divers" for example. A quote Dr. Carl Edmonds, a Hyperbaric Physician, Director of the Diving Medical Centre, New South Wales, Australia and one of the world's leaders in Hyperbaric Medicine may be appropriate(from his book Diving Medicine for Scuba Divers. 2nd Edition. Melbourne; JL Publications, 1997)

"The technical diver is, or should be, a very experienced scuba diver, having logged at least 500 dives before entering this new field. It is usually a male, oriented towards technical toys. He often has a high intelligence but an even larger ego, frequently is obsessional in his attention to detail (which may increase his chances of survival),
often studious and attracted to risk taking behaviour with a reduced safety margin, even if it risks death."

Others are quick to label Deep Air divers as risk takers, or irresponsible. Personally, I don't much like to be pigeonholed, do you?

I think you are deluding yourself that presenting it this way will create responsible divers who will treat narcosis with respect it deserves. I think it will create deep air cowboys who will be on mission to go deepest until they seriously scare or kill themselves.

Deep air cowboys? There goes the pigeonholing again. Suddenly someone who wishes to dive deep air more responsibly is labeled a cowboy. Well you are entitled to your opinion.