Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[lv2dive]

Trace, I'll save you some reading (whether it is here or on another forum) and answer your question: Part door number 2. At the end of the day, Hubris. The word has been with me since yesterday and simply will not go away, that is what this all boils down to. Hubris and resulting VERY BAD CHOICES.

They had made it out of the cave at Little River, and at Eagle's Nest, at least three times of which we know, based on postings on Cave Atlas. But successfully playing Russian Roulette nine times doesn't mean you will make it the tenth.

I do so feel for the family of both the father and son. This should not be a discussion topic. That child should have the opportunity to grow up, and SHAVE for heaven's sake.

And I really hope that the actions of one irresponsible person who was not remotely qualified, trained or appropropriate to be in that cave, do not undo all the hard work that went into getting it reopened for qualified, trained, and responsible cave divers.

I haven't read this whole thread, but since I'm familiar with many of you posting someone may have mentioned this already. I apologize if that is the case.

Thinking about a logical reason (if there was one) why a father would place his son at risk like this, only two things seem to make sense to me:

1. The father had a poor open water instruction and believed he could do a better job teaching his son to dive.

2. The father was arrogant enough to believe that he was capable of making this dive and going in "just a little bit" was okay. Perhaps the thought that his kid could brag that he did Eagle's Nest before he even had an OW card seemed very cool at the time?

I have met divers who thought they were better than their instructor and I've met divers who were arrogant. A couple of these became names in the news.

 

[00wabbit]

Just to chime in here a little bit too.

His best friend knew what he was doing was wrong and still sat there at the dock with him and took pictures of them. If one of my buddies was heading into something that stupid I would definitely have words with them and no way in hell would I be there sitting at the dock.

 

[Texas Torpedo]

Trying to take down the directions on one website isn't going to accomplish anything, it's in a state wildlife management area. Anyone with a modicum of computer experience could find that site and get directions from mapquest, google maps, bing maps, etc.

Can't speak for PfcAJ but maybe it is more than just the driving direction. I stated previously that my problem with the shop is not so much the map to the nest but their tacit approval that cavern diving at this site is ok for ow divers.. In one breath they say, "NOT INTENDED AS AN OPEN WATER DIVE SITE, BUT.." [WINK-WINK] ...."Under ideal circumstances (viz etc..) this can be a Very Cool cavern dive site", followed by driving directions to EN. While it probably had nothing to do with the two Christmas day fatalities, one has to wonder how many ow divers coming through this shop have not only done some training in EN but have decided it was a mostly safe cavern dive for them and their friends to make on any given day. We'll likely never know.. I seriously doubt Johnny Openwater signs in before splashing and out before leaving...

When you put their cavern comments together with directions to the site it sounds like a bad recipe for ignorant divers..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Beginning divers are often shocked at how fast they go through gas when they go deeper than normal. Still, with ANY decent training, it should not have made a difference. One of the first things you learn is to turn your dive at a proper pressure. If you go through your air faster than expected, you turn the dive sooner. That assumes you were TRAINED to monitor your gas usage. In the earliest stages of my cave training, my instructor told me that if I ever missed my turn pressure, the course was over--with no refunds. Believe me, that warning stuck hard throughout my training and beyond. I know how much gas I have before I get remotely close to the turn pressure--surprise is impossible. Of course, if you have not had that training, surprise is very possible.

It also assumes that they're not so mentally incapacitated they neglect to check their gauges ... or comprehend what the numbers they're reading are meant to tell them. At a depth of 233 feet on air, it's quite likely they were so loopy they couldn't think straight ... and I imagine that the undeveloped brain of a 15-year old would have an even harder time handling that they that of an adult.

I think there's a good probability that they didn't turn the dive sooner because it never occurred to them that they should ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added December 27th, 2013 at 12:24 PM ----------

Those computers don't look very DIR to me...

DIR people don't use computers ... not sure what that has to do with anything being discussed here ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added December 27th, 2013 at 12:26 PM ----------

Such a cliche thing to say following a cave fatality. I think this little phrase pops up at least once in every single accident thread.

And it's wrong.

Perhaps the the lesson to be learned here is to not passively support unqualified divers making excursions to caves by turning a blind eye. Or not to lend them gear. Or maybe it's necessary to tell shop owners that a particular diver is insanely unsafe. Maybe the lesson here is that when a shop TELLS OW DIVERS HOW TO ACCESS ONE OF THE MOST UNFORGIVING CAVES IN THE AREA, agencies, instructors, and patrons should stop supporting them.

People are going to make mistakes. And be reckless. And even sometimes drown. But facilitating it? That's a real shame. And it looks like that's what's happened here.

But it's not a cliche ... because the people who will take that (very good) advice don't need to be told ... and those who do need to be told won't listen even when you tell them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Texas Torpedo]

It also assumes that they're not so mentally incapacitated they neglect to check their gauges ... or comprehend what the numbers they're reading are meant to tell them. At a depth of 233 feet on air, it's quite likely they were so loopy they couldn't think straight ... and I imagine that the undeveloped brain of a 15-year old would have an even harder time handling that they that of an adult.

I think there's a good probability that they didn't turn the dive sooner because it never occurred to them that they should ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree.. And when it did occur may have been when Dillon signaled out of air... I could then see them racing up the line (assuming they were close to it) toward the staged bottle(s), but didn't have enough air to make it. Only speculation on my part but nothing good is going to happen on air in that cave..

So far, everything that has come out about this has been textbook bad and not surprising at all.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm reminded of a time years ago where there was a story on the news that was the equivalent of "an insane man stripped naked and ran down the street with his hair on fire."

My wife asked "Why would he do that?"

BECAUSE HE'S INSANE!

Trying to analyze what when wrong, where, gear configuration, dive profile, available gas supply, etc is just silly. The underlying issue is some sort of obvious issue the father had - call it mental, emotional, psychological, psychosocial, what have you - that was in evidence at least ten years before he ever got into diving. There was a clear pattern of behavior - if based only on the incidents for which he was arrested and/or convicted - that this guy was a danger to himself and others. I have no doubt that if this guy took up golf, he would have managed to get himself and his son killed in "a golf accident" somehow.

I agree with PfcAJ's observation that, perhaps what can be learned here is that allowing/enabling stupid people to be stupid has consequences. Apparently, there were plenty of people who were no doubt aware of this guy's criminal history and poor judgement... who also knew that he was putting his minor child's life in mortal danger on a regular basis. And they did nothing. The "best friend" who said he often waited on the EN dock fearing the would not return? Whoever this recovery diver Brooks is, who lent him gear while telling him "one day they're Ginna call me to recover your body? The fiancé who said he had "respect for the danger" of cave diving? Is it possible that they were the only three people who knew what was going on?

I'm traveling, so don't have access to any of my NACD course materials, but am wondering if NACD, NSS-CDS or other cave agencies have a "Statement of a Understanding" or similar that certified divers must sign. I recall from my PADI OW course that one of the things I agreed to when I signed the PADI statement was to "Deny use of my equipment to non-certified divers." I vaguely recall my NACD cert card or materials indicating that I agreed to something to the effect that I would not take non-cave certified divers into caves.

If a cave diver's certifying agency has such an agreement, what are the implications if they knowingly lent a non-cave-certified gear and tacitly condoned their cave diving? (Of course I think I know the answer...).

Doesn't this all sound familiar?

Didn't we have basically this same discussion with the dufus who disappeared at Vortex?

What got learned ... other than stupid people do stupid things?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Thanks, Kate.

I received my full open water C-card at age 15 and part of that training was to take responsibility as a diver by knowing when to tell adults, dive pros, myself and my dad when I believed a dive was too big for my britches. The other part of that training was knowing what dives I was trained to do, to advanced slowly, to take required education and to make sure my buddies were trained and able to do the dives we planned.

If the kid was a certified diver, I would hold him equally responsible. Since he wasn't, and not having kids and not knowing how mature a 15 year-old is today, I don't know what to say about that.

 

[RJP]

Doesn't this all sound familiar?

Didn't we have basically this same discussion with the dufus who disappeared at Vortex?

What got learned ... other than stupid people do stupid things?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yeah, we can't stop stupid people from killing themselves. But we should be able to stop stupid people from killing their children. As the parent of a 15yr old myself, I'd like to think someone would care enough about my daughter to beat the crap out of me if I were regularly putting her life in danger. Hell, my wife goes berserk if I check a text message while stopped at a traffic light with my kids in the car.

Haven't read anything about where the mother stood on all of this. I'm guessing she's been behind the mental/emotional 8-ball on this one since the age of 14.

 

[lv2dive]

Well I would say there is less of a likelihood to find non-cave divers diving P1 at Wes Skiles Peacock State park than other locations where the cave cert card display is not required.

But at the end of the day, people are going to do things that they shouldn't. And in this case, I don't know that anything would have made a difference; there was a clear history of bad decisions. But I don't see the harm in doing anything-however small-to encourage appropriate training/certification.

And the irony is, that all that could've been displayed, in this case... would be ONE O/W C-CARD! At the foot of "Mt. Everest"...

 

[Greg Hamilton]

In the end, is it my or our job to keep people from killing themselves?

When people have already shown they don't follow rules and regulations, are more rules and regulations going to change their behavior?

The death of the youngster is unfortunate. The adults tasked with his safety failed at their jobs. That is scuba independent.

I don't believe the lessons learned have much to do with certifications, education, regulation, etc. as we already know those lessons. This is just another confirmation of things the community has known for a long time.

Certain actions, behaviors, attitudes, etc have predictable and logical outcomes. This was one of those.