Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[Centrals]

Your experience is not universal.

I believe that applies to everyone with no exception!!

 

[victorzamora]

Could it be that these two divers used poor judgement and made a bad decision...

Nobody in here will say anything to dispute that. That's been universally agreed upon since Day 1. If nothing else, these two divers shouldn't have been in ANY kind of overhead environment. Entering into that environment at all was an awful decision attributed fully to poor judgement.

 

[oncor23]

I wonder how this would have played out if they had somehow survived. The kid would have been bragging to his school buddies about how accomplished he was as a diver. The father would have even more misguided hubris about his skills as a cave diver. And the next dive would have been even deeper and longer. I'm sure they felt they had already conquered the Nest. It seems their deaths were inevitable. If not now, then next week or month.

This post starts to get at something that went on here...and probably goes on all the time, and not just scuba diving. It's that old standard of pushing the limits a little and getting away with it. Then push a little more next time...and get away with it. And so on and so on and so on. And then, when you're way out on a limb and it breaks, everyone asks, "what in heck was that moron doing way out on that limb?!?!" He got away with something slight less risky a dozen times before it broke...so that's why he was out there. From what I've read, this was an accident waiting to happen...if not this time, next time or the time after that. But it was going to happen.

 

[victorzamora]

this was an accident waiting to happen...if not this time, next time or the time after that. But it was going to happen.

There have been a LOT of spinoff threads from this. Most of them involve a non-Tech trained diver explaining why they should be allowed to do a little deco without any proper training, equipment, or planning. The rationale is that they've done it before and they're better than the average diver, so they should be allowed to. This has been missing from all of those threads, or the point was "missed" if it was introduced.

 

[oncor23]

Okay, if I'm going to be honest, I've been out on that limb myself...a little ways. While it's only been a very little ways out with scuba, I've been out farther on the limb with bicycle riding. When my limb broke, thankfully, it was not while I was way out there. Mine was a simple crash, nothing more involved than my own carelessness and surprise that the stones on shoulder of the road was a lot looser than I thought. However, my broken wrist was not so simple and will never be quite the same. The worst part was it kept me out of the water for 8 months. So, what am I getting at with this story?

Whenever we go out on whatever limb, we increase the chance of something bad happening. However, living means putting up with the risk of accidents and yes, worse. That said, we can learn to reduce the risk. But there is always a trade-off. How much learning and practice do you want to put in before engaging in the activity? Where is the balance between time spent learning and doing? I guess we all want to shave that corner down at times. And yes, we all pick different balance points...and risk levels. And now, finally, my point. What it often takes to keep any of us honest are the mishaps. If you never get burned when you cross the line, you'll come to believe there is no line or it doesn't count for you. Getting burned when you make mistakes really reinforces the lessons taught about safety. Learning has to be visceral to really stick. If you can do it with a video, great. My wrist reminds me every day of what can happen long after I've forgotten...kind of...the trauma of the accident and aftermath.

When I suggested in my previous comments that these divers were an accident waiting to happen...it didn't have to be fatal. I don't mean they could have pulled off this particular dive...I mean that it seems like something bad had to happen to shake them up before they would wake up to the risks they were taking. If they had been luckier, it would have happened while they were doing something more survivable, but bad enough to make clear that they were taking a much bigger risk than they realized. Learning by making mistakes...we all do it. Most of the time, we survive because we don't stick our necks out that far and/or the odds catch up to us soon enough to simply remind us we aren't as good and prepared as we thought. It's when people take big steps across the line and they get away with it more than once or twice...that's when the real disaster hits when their luck finally runs out.

 

[tracydr]

And here we get to the crux of a mindset difference. Many of us have no desire to 'police' other people who pose a danger only to themselves. The purpose of laws to control dangerous behavior is usually to protect people from each other. People are responsible for themselves.

The involvement of the minor was a different issue, but evidently a rare one such that it shouldn't drive policy.

And ironically, as is often the case with regulatory changes made in response to bad outcomes, I don't think your system being in place would've prevented the bad outcome we're discussing. It's an isolated place. Probably not a high traffic place. Odds are good they'd not have run across anybody.

For that matter, when you go cave diving, do you arrive at the site and first go around checking all the vehicles for some sort of license, and then watch everyone who dives to see whether they try to go in some sort of cave?

What ever happened to people minding their own business?

Richard.

Still trying to figure out who " The Authorities" are that Giani keeps talking about.

 

[boulderjohn]

I had an interesting discussion with a diving friend a couple of months ago. He has for many years been an avid and accomplished rock climber, and he continues to engage in that activity. He told me that when he was a young beginning climber, he took shortcuts in his training and did climbs that pushed to the limits of that training and beyond. As a result, he very nearly died on a couple of occasions. He finally realized the foolishness of his actions and focused on getting the proper training he needed to be able to do the kind of climbs he wanted to do.

Now he is very much interested in cave diving. In particular he wants to dive the caves in the Yucatan. He learned his lesson when he was a climber, though. He is taking the right classes from the right people and progressing through his training so that he will be able to do those dives safely and effectively.

 

[nimoh]

I had an interesting discussion with a diving friend a couple of months ago. He has for several years been an avid and accomplished rock climber, and he continues to engage in that activity. He told me that when he was a young beginning climber, he took shortcuts in his training and did climbs that pushed to the limits of that training and beyond. As a result, he very nearly died on a couple of occasions. He finally realized the foolishness of his actions and focused on getting the proper training he needed to be able to do the kind of climbs he wanted to do.

Now he is very much interested in cave diving. In particular he wants to dive the caves in the Yucatan. He learned his lesson when he was a climber, though. He is taking the right classes from the right people and progressing through his training so that he will be able to do those dives safely and effectively.

So people can change. Sometimes it takes some near misses to evoke change, and for others such as Spivey and his son, they won't get the chance.

 

[victorzamora]

I think people CAN change, but it takes an impetus to scare the crap out of them. The size of push needed is inversely proportional to the intelligence and directly proportional to the hubris of the person being pushed.

 

[The Chairman]

The problem is with the Hollywood approach to just about everything difficult. Let's set up the Hollywood version of what Spivey might have been thinking: "Against all odds, our intrepid diver must take himself and his step son on a perilous dive to prove his critics that he has what it takes to be a cave diver and an instructor." It's a romanticized and highly flawed view of the underdog''s dilemma through the panglossian eyes of a Hollywood screen writer. We see it in movies like Rocky, legally Blonde and the replacements where we celebrate the protagonist beating the system against all odds.