Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[Jax]

"Good reason" can be "exploration/survey" for a portion of the unexplored/newly explored part of the cave, or maybe "training" for a surveyed/explored/made safe portion of the cave...

If you divide the cave in sectors, then the "license" can be limited to a particular sector where good reason can be shown/demonstrated, so you can make a section still under exploration off limits other than for the exploration team (for the safety of the exploration team and less experienced divers), while another sector ("easier" and without exploratory lines...) "open" to all those with any cave C-cards.

"Good reason" = "Common Sense"

It is not a "nanny state" and has nothing to do with state laws or regulation.

It is purely a private sector expression/form of self-regulation/organization to responsibly increase cave diving safety and protect the caves and the environment (which will also protect the business which has developed around cave diving).

You are already digging yourself deeper than that uncommon "common sense" would make.

First, someone has to define what is common sense - the least common of all sense.

Then define what good reasons are common sense.

Then what is the limits to responsibly increase cave diving safety . . .

Then what will do all those things and protect the business(es) . . .

Yes, you are indeed defining a nanny state.

 

[gianaameri]

You are already digging yourself deeper than that uncommon "common sense" would make.

First, someone has to define what is common sense - the least common of all sense.

Then define what good reasons are common sense.

Then what is the limits to responsibly increase cave diving safety . . .

Then what will do all those things and protect the business(es) . . .

Yes, you are indeed defining a nanny state.

Simply putting up a warning sign has shown that it is not enough.

Father and minor son with no cave training can buy and borrow equipment and GET FILLS and go REGULARLY cave diving, despite the warning signs (and just about anybody in contact/proximity with them KNOWING about it).

I mean, he took the kid on Christmas day to TRY the Christmas present in the CAVE and they BOTH died in there (and the bodies were recovered by the cave expert who lent the Dad equipment and knew was cave diving without training).

This defies any definition of common sense.

 

[Jax]

Simply putting up a warning sign has shown that it is not enough.

Once again, you cannot legislate away stupidity and irresponsibility. If the sign is not enough, then Darwin rules.


How about you campaign for all the nanny state crap in YOUR country, and leave ours alone.

 

[Herb-alaska]

I hardly ever post on accidents because I have very strong feelings about personal responsibility and sometimes my view is not very popular, but I would like to ask how the community feels about responsibility to a child.

I believe that society has placed certain responsibilities on adults to protect children, this goes beyond just safe diving to making sure they have seat belts on, bike helmets, have proper nutrition etc. I see governmental agencies like Office of Children protective services interacting with parents who do not seek health care for their children because it is considered to prudent, I see schools forcing parents to feed children set items in their "bring from home" lunches. With all of this protection happening for children why was this long standing risky behavior of taking a un-certified child diving and for sure cave diving not investigated and a subject of intervention by the appropriate agency long before it was so costly.

I support any adults right to dive in the manner that he did, as long as he accepts that it comes with a cost that that may be very high. He and his family must know and accept that no rescue or recovery is required or should be expected. I have to draw the line at him having the right to take a minor child with him. I personally would have called OCS and reported a case of neglect had I encountered them. If you encounter law enforcement while doing something illegal they very well may impound you gun, car, boat, dive gear ect. What do you think about a LEO encountering this pair returning from a dive and having the right to impound the child's dive gear. The activity is not the problem it was way that the activity was carried out that caused the death, the father had the right to do this but the child did not and certainly the father did not have the right to encourage or enable the son. With out getting testy what does the community think about that position.

 

[Ron Lee]

Simply putting up a warning sign has shown that it is not enough.

Father and minor son with no cave training can buy and borrow equipment and GET FILLS and go REGULARLY cave diving, despite the warning signs (and just about anybody in contact/proximity with them KNOWING about it).

I mean, he took the kid on Christmas day to TRY the Christmas present in the CAVE and they BOTH died in there (and the bodies were recovered by the cave expert who lent the Dad equipment and knew was cave diving without training).

This defies any definition of common sense.

Only in America!

Cue the patriotic themed music. Yes, that is freedom.

 

[gianaameri]

Once again, you cannot legislate away stupidity and irresponsibility. If the sign is not enough, then Darwin rules.


How about you campaign for all the nanny state crap in YOUR country, and leave ours alone.

Then just leave the bodies there. Be consistent with your own rules!

There is a problem though with that logic.

Somebody has put lines in the caves and is profiting from that same cave and built a business around it.

HIGHwing gave the "price list."

You turn a recreational activity into a money making business (with advertisements attracting customers), in addition to cleaning up the mess (IUCRR...), you need to show some compassion, self-restraint, and some form of effective self-regulation (i.e. "common sense").

 

[lv2dive]

Once again we are in another thread related to cave diving where one particular self-important individual with little to no experience/exposure of US mores/standards/customs, knows more than anyone else about EXACTLY what should be done. I think in general the conversation wrt to this incident has been civil and respectful but I for one AM DONE reading and responding to sanctimonious individuals with all the answers. I encourage others to follow suit.

 

[HIGHwing]

You know what they say, "Some people have to touch the stove..."

 

[lv2dive]

Well for people who have NOT seen certain individuals show their true colors in earlier threads, one sort of has to play it through initially, until it gets to too surreal for response.

You know what they say, "Some people have to touch the stove..."

 

[boulderjohn]

The statement that the warnings that are currently given are not working is to defy the statistics. The fact that we are getting so worked up over one incident is an indication that it is working pretty well. Although untrained people do go into caves, and some of them do die there, the numbers really are pretty small overall. They are working for the overwhelming majority of divers. Only a handful at the far end of the bell curve are ignoring the message.

That does not mean we can't do a better job in some way. Notice that I am not offering that solution. I don't know it.

As I have said before, I don't understand why cave diving is perceived differently from other similar activities where going beyond your training can be fatal. There are no warning signs to be found anywhere. I live in an area with lots of challenging rock climbing sites, and you regularly can watch highly trained climbers on those walls. Occasionally under-trained climbers fall to their deaths. You never then hear a call for closing the sites, providing better warning systems, etc. People kind of figure that if you did a climb for which you are not qualified, then you did something stupid and paid for it.