Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

In my opinion the only class that should be taught at EN is trimix, and only to full cave students.

I agree with this opinion completely.

 

[redacted]

Any shop that takes divers to this site without full cave certification and trimix is more interested in making money than keeping their students safe. In my opinion the only class that should be taught at EN is trimix, and only to full cave students.

I believe that only unfit, selfish, unsafe oxygen thieves would make any argument for new divers at this site.

I agree with this opinion completely.

WHY

Why should the state allow only a small segment of its population access to that tax payer supported facility and prohibit others from using it?

Without clear and compelling reason, I believe the site should be open to all.

 

[HIGHwing]

WHY

Why should the state allow only a small segment of its population access to that tax payer supported facility and prohibit others from using it?

To save money on the state-paid authorities who have to clean up the mess.

 

[redacted]

To save money on the state-paid authorities who have to clean up the mess.

If the state would like to avoid the cost of rescue/recovery efforts in the cave, it seems to me they should close the cave to all. That would probably leave a good OW training site.

Be careful what you ask for.

 

[gianaameri]

You seem to be working under the assumption that cave divers saw what was going on (specifically the 15 year old doing cave dives) and looked the other way. As a member of the Florida cave diving community, I find that highly unlikely. The cave diving community shames its own members for minor etiquette violations on a regular basis. There is no way they would look the other way if they even suspected that an open water diver and his non-certified son were attempting what is normally a staged decompression Trimix cave dive.

Eagles Nest is way off the beaten path. I have been there many times and I have only seen other divers there once. Little River is also pretty quiet much of the time and it's frequently used for cavern classes so it's not unusual to see younger and/or inexperienced divers there. It wouldn't always be cause for alarm unless you actually see them underwater in the cave zone. I think it is very likely that the victims were going out of their way to avoid trained cave divers while diving these sites.

As far as the recovery diver that loaned gear to the father, we don't even know what gear was loaned. It could have been a snorkel and the suggestion to do some open water diving for all we know. I think it's unlikely that the recovery diver knew the father was taking the son with him on cave dives. What we do know is that the recovery diver told the father to get some cave training and he told him that if he kept attempting cave dives without training he was going to die.

It is more of a question if it was "known" behaviour rather then actually "seen" behaviour, but of course if the behaviour was neither seen nor known, then there is nothing which could have prevented the fatalities brought about by the father's recklessness.

I saw an 11 year old and a 15 year old going diving with two adult cave divers (their Dads).

I did ask the 11 year old, "You are starting quite young... how old are you?"

The cave is not deep and starts with a large room and a large entrance (18 meters max depth), but it is a cave, and it is complex (15+ km.), and can silt up to zero vis (entrance included).

I did not make a big deal of it at the time, but imagine if there had been a fatality how I would have felt afterwords.

They had landowner permission, but now the system we use is different requiring a license where the divers (each one individually) have to show good reason, cave training c-card, and insurance to obtain the license and lawfully access the cave (plus landowner permission).

Problem solved and a good preventative measure!

 

[boulderjohn]

WHY

Why should the state allow only a small segment of its population access to that tax payer supported facility and prohibit others from using it?

Without clear and compelling reason, I believe the site should be open to all.

If the state would like to avoid the cost of rescue/recovery efforts in the cave, it seems to me they should close the cave to all. That would probably leave a good OW training site.
.

Here's a parallel argument regarding the requirement for driver licenses before driving cars on the highway:

Why should the state allow only a small segment of its population access to that tax payer supported facility and prohibit others from using it?

Without clear and compelling reason, I believe the roads should be open to all.

If the state would like to avoid the cost of rescue/recovery efforts on the highway, it seems to me they should close the highways to all.

 

[lavachickie]

WHY

Why should the state allow only a small segment of its population access to that tax payer supported facility and prohibit others from using it?

Without clear and compelling reason, I believe the site should be open to all.

I didn't understand the poster to be suggesting the state limit access. But rather stating that shops/instructors shouldn't take untrained divers there.

Why? Because those who are teachers and leaders have to carefully consider the possible interpretation and results of their actions in ways much more subtle than, "Is this legal or not?"

There are many things which are legal, but yet are not ethical, and many things which are both legal and ethical which may still just not be good ideas. Taking a group of learning students (in any discipline) to a spot where they may be drawn by the siren song of the next steps before they are ready, with mortal consequences, just isn't a good idea.

Your act of bringing them there, in a leadership position, may affect their opinion of whether their own chosen actions beyond what you sanction are reasonable or valid. They may see your taking them there as an implicit statement that they can/should do something.

Even if you tell them otherwise.

I'm not a cave diver. I've only seen the environment at this particular location via YouTube videos. But from what I know about people, I have to agree with Mdax and Capt Jim Wyatt.

It sounds like there are plenty of other areas where one can do non technical training in this area. I ask you -- What do you feel is the benefit gained, in the face of this risk, by taking OW students to this location?

 

[hroark2112]

Locks keep honest people honest. Criminals still cut them. The same is true for a required license. I seriously doubt a requirement for a license would have had any way of stopping this incident. It would just be one more thing to point to as just another violation.

Dead guys don't pay fines.

 

[PfcAJ]

I've yet to see evidence of them visiting regulated caves (ginnie peacock Madison etc), only open access caves (EN and LR).

Seems to me that if EN and LR were similarly regulated to other park-caves, they wouldn't have went there.

 

[redacted]

Here's a parallel argument regarding the requirement for driver licenses before driving cars on the highway:

Why should the state allow only a small segment of its population access to that tax payer supported facility and prohibit others from using it?

Without clear and compelling reason, I believe the roads should be open to all.

If the state would like to avoid the cost of rescue/recovery efforts on the highway, it seems to me they should close the highways to all.

I suspect that driver's licenses serve more to protect the general public than the driver. Bad divers may detract from some of diving's pleasures but rarely, if ever, present a serious danger to other divers. But, if you really think that diving licenses (government issued and managed) are the way to go, then throw your vote in for its support. It would not get my support. I could even see a less restrictive compromise of the state requiring recognized Certifications for appropriate use of the facility. But the police of that would be either ineffective or expensive - probably both.

My problem is the idea of closing it to any segment of the population, like students under instructor supervision, appears to be a knee-jerk reaction with little compelling rational behind it. Some may be fooled to think it looks like it is dealing with the problem when it may not be.

Without clear and compelling reason, I believe that all publicly owned roads and dive sites (and most other facilities) should be open to all.