Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[smellzlikefish]

Part of the problem here is that a dive agency is a business and has inherent alternate motives (make money). Some have taken this aspect a little far by creating "certifications" that are desperately unnecessary, thereby trivializing the more crucial training courses (Cave, tech, rescue, etc.). This forces divers to question what activities require proper training and which ones they can figure out on their own. I certainly don't have the income to spend on "shark-diver", "night diving", "Underwater photographer" and "blue water" specialty courses.

 

[Mustard Dave]

I have the following cert cards (all PADI) in this order:

Scuba Diver
Open Water Diver
Dry Suit Diver
Advanced Open Water Diver
Rescue Diver
Deep Diver

I regularly make dives involving wreck penetration, depths greater than 40m (130ft) and decompression dives (some with rich nitrox for accelerated deco). The largest amount I've busted my cert card by is 20m (50m dive before doing the deep spec).

Is it dangerous? No, not in my opinion. I dive twin 12s, primary canister light, two back-up lights, cold water rated regs, Heinrichs Weikamp OSTC 2n computer, bottom timer and back-up deco plan, I can calculate deco on the fly with the ratio decompression method, I always carry DSMB and reel (plus spare), I am properly weighted, I always wear the right exposure suit, two cutting devices (both of which can be reached with either hand) and dive with a hog-looped long hose.

Doing courses is one thing, but a lot is to be said for experience. I am not suggesting jumping in and diving beyond your limits, but since learning to dive, I have read a lot on the subject and I dive regularly with knowledgeable divers. I am an engineer and have a lot of experience in managing safety in the workplace, so I have quite an analytical mind and study the risks carefully. I question everything I learn and do not do something a particular way until I'm happy with the logic behind it.

I have dived with some shockingly bad DMs and instructors, who I would not trust as a buddy in 18m. I know qualified technical divers that do stuff that I think is plain suicidal.

I dive in the UK in cold water (I'm diving tomorrow and the water should be about 4 degrees C). What is more dangerous - me diving tomorrow, beyond my cert level, to 45m with the above set-up, or somebody with a PADI deep cert doing a 39m dive at the same site on a single cylinder?

My main point is there is an enormous difference between diving beyond your certification level and diving beyond your (or your equipment's) capabilities.

 

[flots am]

Is it dangerous? No, not in my opinion.

Your opinion is incorrect. Any penetration dive is dangerous and yours are even more dangerous because you don't recognize this.

Divers much more experienced than you have died on wrecks because they got disoriented or silted out and found a porthole or a ceiling instead of a staircase.

flots.

 

[BDSC]

Your opinion is incorrect. Any penetration dive is dangerous and yours are even more dangerous because you don't recognize this.

And I could just as easily say your opinion is incorrect as well but I'm not sure if opinions are either correct or incorrect being that they are just opinions. I have dove on numerous wrecks off the coast of NC and throughout the Caribbean. Some of the wrecks have been intentionally sunk and designed such that you can't get into remote areas where you could lose your way. You can "penetrate" them and swim in and out, up stairways, etc. etc. and there is nothing dangerous about the dive at all. Some are nothing more than a swim through like you would do on many reefs in the Caribbean. Not sure how swimming from one side of a wreck thru to the other side is really any different than starting one side side of a reef and swimming thru to the other side.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Even "clean wrecks" can deteriorate and collapse over time. Ceilings, bulkheads, floors, fixtures can come loose. When the Spiegel was flipped upright I 'd be willing to bet, knowing about metal, that there were welds that broke due to the stresses, items that moved, perhaps jagged tears that would slice a suit, hose, or flesh were exposed.

Those holes that are cut for access and safety can turn into razor sharp rusted edges that will slice a diver. Some of them that appear nice and big may not be to someone with dangling hoses, octo's, large than expected profiles, etc. Complaceny kills. Over confidence kills.

Thinking of any kind of manmade object as being completely safe after it has been submerged in salt water for any length of time is a good way to end up dead. Just as swimming through a reef with poor buoyancy skills or behind some idiot who does not know how to use a modified frog can silt the thing out, cause an unprepared diver to panic, get hung up on the ceiling, etc.

That kind of thinking is also a clear indication of someone I don't want to dive with or for sure allow anyone I care about to dive with.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Your opinion is incorrect. Any penetration dive is dangerous and yours are even more dangerous because you don't recognize this.

Divers much more experienced than you have died on wrecks because they got disoriented or silted out and found a porthole or a ceiling instead of a staircase.

flots.

Humans are not meant to breathe underwater. This is a fact, not an opinion, that we can all agree on. There are risks in any type of diving, be it a 90m dive on a CCR or a 12m bimble in a shorty in crystal clear blue waters, but certain dives carry greater risk. What is important is how we manage them.

Dangerous is a very strong term. I accept that penetration dives carry greater risk but it is still possible to manage the risk. You can choose to stay in the light zone, you can run lines, you can assess the stability of a wreck etc. As I said, I also carry back-ups of everything, so for example, failure of my primary light doesn't turn into an enormous clusterf**k.

I did not say the diving I do carries little or no risk - I said I have the requisite knowledge and experience to deal with emergencies at this depth by virtue of my own study and experience and that cert cards do not make a diver. One of the first things most tech courses teach you is that you must accept and prepare for the increased risk.

 

[NAM001]

Sounds like to me that mustard is doing what the training is meant to teach him to do. Backups, sound gear selection, and comfort with the environment he is diving in. Not to say that formal training would teach him nothing, but sometimes thare are those that just dont need it for the reasons others need it. He most probably may learn a few fine techniques but the major skills or knoledge sets appear to be in place. A lot of kids that grew up on farms have been told they cant drive without drivers ed. By the time they are old enough to get a learners permit they have 100's of accident free miles on the roads. They still have to go to drivers ed to be certified to handle smaller less powerful equipage though.

 

[Superlyte27]

Your opinion is incorrect. Any penetration dive is dangerous and yours are even more dangerous because you don't recognize this.

Divers much more experienced than you have died on wrecks because they got disoriented or silted out and found a porthole or a ceiling instead of a staircase.

flots.

Damn you all for creating a scenario where I must agree with Flots Jk.

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2012 at 06:15 PM ----------

Even "clean wrecks" can deteriorate and collapse over time. Ceilings, bulkheads, floors, fixtures can come loose. When the Spiegel was flipped upright I 'd be willing to bet, knowing about metal, that there were welds that broke due to the stresses, items that moved, perhaps jagged tears that would slice a suit, hose, or flesh were exposed.

Those holes that are cut for access and safety can turn into razor sharp rusted edges that will slice a diver. Some of them that appear nice and big may not be to someone with dangling hoses, octo's, large than expected profiles, etc. Complaceny kills. Over confidence kills.

Thinking of any kind of manmade object as being completely safe after it has been submerged in salt water for any length of time is a good way to end up dead. Just as swimming through a reef with poor buoyancy skills or behind some idiot who does not know how to use a modified frog can silt the thing out, cause an unprepared diver to panic, get hung up on the ceiling, etc.

That kind of thinking is also a clear indication of someone I don't want to dive with or for sure allow anyone I care about to dive with.

And even with all those hatches on the SG, people have still gotten lost and died traversing the swim through's on the Speigel Grove.

 

[oldschoolto]

And what about the guy that pays for the classes from some half a$$ instructor that got his ratings from some other jack-off instructor... We have all seen people with instructor ratings that you wouldn't trust in a wading pond.... So, Is he ready for caving because he has a piece of paper...:amazed:

Jim....

 

[tstormdiver]

So in your opinion, which recreational courses could be forgone and which ones should a person take to be able to safely do those types of dives?

Read it again: "I do agree, there are some recreational courses that could be forgone, but there are other recreational specialties in which it would be the wiser road (especially for some) to to have the training." Once again Do not put meaning into my words where there is none, please. Some of those courses would include those that should really be taught in their Open water course- Buoyancy, Boat diving, Computer, Navigation,...

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2012 at 07:53 PM ----------

Now,... back to one of the divers that was doing the 200ft bounce dives,... when asked about it, he had absolutely no clue as to what should actually be involved or the actual risks. He decided to do it because he thought,... the others were doing it, it must be safe. The leader is a former OW instructor I know & has no technical training or experience, maybe a couple hundred dives in his career. Yes,... they hung a 32% deco bottle at 40 ft (what good that will do, at that low a PO2, I'm not sure.....). But they had single tanks, no redundancy of anything at all, nor the knowledge how to use it, if they did. The others had less than 100 dives & were once or twice a year vacation divers. These other divers blindly followed the former instructor on those dives. No one, not even the former instructor had any real idea of what they were doing All fun & games, until it goes wrong.....

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2012 at 07:58 PM ----------

And what about the guy that pays for the classes from some half a$$ instructor that got his ratings from some other jack-off instructor... We have all seen people with instructor ratings that you wouldn't trust in a wading pond.... So, Is he ready for caving because he has a piece of paper...:amazed:

Jim....

Unfortunately a sad part of the industry. One I would like to see corrected. Any ideas? Seems like for all that people try to correct this, there are those unscrupulous enough to skirt around it.