Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[Superlyte27]

And what about the guy that pays for the classes from some half a$$ instructor that got his ratings from some other jack-off instructor... We have all seen people with instructor ratings that you wouldn't trust in a wading pond.... So, Is he ready for caving because he has a piece of paper...:amazed:

Jim....

Well, that's the other big issue. And believe me, I see it all the time. You don't know what you don't know. And if you don't do SOLID research, you might not know that the guy you've trusted your training to is a giant tool with no teaching ability.

 

[redacted]

Unfortunately a sad part of the industry. One I would like to see corrected. Any ideas? Seems like for all that people try to correct this, there are those unscrupulous enough to skirt around it.

Sure. Separate training and certification so the same individual is not doing both.

 

[SangP]

Well there are the ignorant and the foolish, both of which have no place in diving much less going deep or entering any overhead enviroment.
Edd had to rescue a padi instructor and his daughter during a cave dive gone wrong. A cave that already guidelines and many prior visitors.
Another easy looking dive that can go badly wrong is clearly shown here.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...wreck-danger-graphic-video-demonstration.html

Back OT, going into caves. wrecks or deeper without any prior training seems ok till something goes wrong and without proper training, the knowledge of what to do when the sh!t has hit the fan is what proper training is all about.

 

[tstormdiver]

Sure. Separate training and certification so the same individual is not doing both.

To a degree, it makes sense. SSI already does that at the Instructor level. They will not even allow "in-house" training & certification, even if it is separate instructors, one instructing, one evaluating.

 

[DaleC]

I also do not feel like beating a dead horse and I think I've said all I want to on that subject but... if you are going to correct my post to reflect body retrieval you will also have to explain retrieving some very highly trained divers as well. Some names come to mind but I won't mention them out of respect.

Some people argued that you don't have to have a formal class--you can train yourself. Of course that is possible in many cases. People can get some math books and teach themselves calculus. That doesn't happen very often, though, because most people prefer to have an instructor active in the process. If the person who chose to self-train in calculus is effective in that study, then that person knows as much as those who were formally trained.

But that was not the issue. The issue was divers diving beyond their training, however that training was obtained.

A very good point that I completely agree with. Put in that context it makes the argument of how the training is acquired somewhat mute. Whether one follows a formal or informal route one should not dive beyond the limits of their training.

 

[boulderjohn]

To a degree, it makes sense. SSI already does that at the Instructor level. They will not even allow "in-house" training & certification, even if it is separate instructors, one instructing, one evaluating.

When did that change take place?

I ask as a non-SDI person. I was in San Carlos, MX, doing some recreational dives. One day I was taking a very long boat ride out to the dive site and talking to the operation owner, an SSI course director who was going to finish the certification of a new SSI instructor that day. We had a very interesting chat. He was concerned about proposed changes in SSI policy that would affect what he was doing that day. The new instructor he was about to certify had gotten his OW certification from him a few years ago. He had gotten all subsequent certifications from him over the following years. When the guy wanted to become an instructor, he did as he always did when he certified new instructors--he asked him what he wanted to do with his certification so he could tailor the instruction to his intentions. Told that the guy wanted to work in a tropical resort (like his) he dropped all the instruction that would relate instead to cold water diving so he could teach him only what he needed to know to teach in warm water resort locations. He could do that because he, as a course director, could certify instructors without any outside verification. He was upset that proposed changes in the SSI policies would require an outside evaluator, meaning that he might have to teach all the concepts in the standards, not just the ones he knew his student would need for his intended purpose. He thought having to teach all that extra stuff was a waste of time and effort. That was just a couple of years ago.

 

[tstormdiver]

When did that change take place?

I ask as a non-SDI person. I was in San Carlos, MX, doing some recreational dives. One day I was taking a very long boat ride out to the dive site and talking to the operation owner, an SSI course director who was going to finish the certification of a new SSI instructor that day. We had a very interesting chat. He was concerned about proposed changes in SSI policy that would affect what he was doing that day. The new instructor he was about to certify had gotten his OW certification from him a few years ago. He had gotten all subsequent certifications from him over the following years. When the guy wanted to become an instructor, he did as he always did when he certified new instructors--he asked him what he wanted to do with his certification so he could tailor the instruction to his intentions. Told that the guy wanted to work in a tropical resort (like his) he dropped all the instruction that would relate instead to cold water diving so he could teach him only what he needed to know to teach in warm water resort locations. He could do that because he, as a course director, could certify instructors without any outside verification. He was upset that proposed changes in the SSI policies would require an outside evaluator, meaning that he might have to teach all the concepts in the standards, not just the ones he knew his student would need for his intended purpose. He thought having to teach all that extra stuff was a waste of time and effort. That was just a couple of years ago.

About 2 yrs ago, SSI changed it to there must be 2 different instructors involved- 1 to do the training, 1 to do the cert. evaluations. About a year ago, they added in that one of the instructors must come from the outside. I found this out, as I was trying to find what I needed to become an Instructor Trainer. The owner of our shop is an Instructor Certifier (evaluator), so it would be of no use for me to pursue this course at this time.

 

[boulderjohn]

About 2 yrs ago, SSI changed it to there must be 2 different instructors involved- 1 to do the training, 1 to do the cert. evaluations. About a year ago, they added in that one of the instructors must come from the outside. I found this out, as I was trying to find what I needed to become an Instructor Trainer. The owner of our shop is an Instructor Certifier (evaluator), so it would be of no use for me to pursue this course at this time.

Is that just for the professional levels, or for all levels?

 

[BDSC]

Here is your earlier statement.

The original post is mostly referring to those who go (mostly) into the technical realms,... several steps ahead of their current levels of training without training. As I said earlier, yes, I do agree, there are some recreational courses that could be forgone, but there are other recreational specialties in which it would be the wiser road (especially for some) to to have the training. Personally, I don't care if someone has a piece of plastic, I care about the training, knowledge & skills of the divers matching the dives they are trying to do.

Then from that I simply asked which specialties could be forgone and which ones should a person take. Then you come back with this.

Read it again: "I do agree, there are some recreational courses that could be forgone, but there are other recreational specialties in which it would be the wiser road (especially for some) to to have the training." Once again Do not put meaning into my words where there is none, please. Some of those courses would include those that should really be taught in their Open water course- Buoyancy, Boat diving, Computer, Navigation,...

What meaning was I putting into your words? It was a simple question asking you to clarify which specialties, in your opinion, could be forgone.

 

[tstormdiver]

Is that just for the professional levels, or for all levels?

Only OW Instructor level or higher.

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2012 at 09:19 PM ----------

Here is your earlier statement.



Then from that I simply asked which specialties could be forgone and which ones should a person take. Then you come back with this.



What meaning was I putting into your words? It was a simple question asking you to clarify which specialties, in your opinion, could be forgone.

Sorry. Misinterpreted first time reading. I thought you were trying to say that all specialties could be by-passed, when I was saying there are some that could be by-passed, as really they should be taught in basic OW. Then there are some that really should have an instructor present to make things as safe as reasonably possible. Please accept my apology.