Court: Scuba death suit can proceed even though man signed waiver
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Okay, as long as we're sucking up free advice, I have a question: I'm involved in a couple of dive clubs and have concerns about my personal liability insofar as my activities with the clubs include being an officer, instructor and event leader. Yeah, I know...dumb. That's what my insurance agent tells me, anyway.
What can we (the club collectively and me personally) do to help mitigate our liability? These clubs don't have the cash to be paying for insurance policies and, frankly, consulations with attorney's will stretch their budgets to the squeaking point, too. Any thoughts? We've got over 100 members in one club and schedule events and classes year-round, including a number that are out of state and even out of country - should I just give up and put everything in my wife's name?
And, when seeking local counsel, what the heck kind of specialty is this?
What can we (the club collectively and me personally) do to help mitigate our liability? These clubs don't have the cash to be paying for insurance policies and, frankly, consulations with attorney's will stretch their budgets to the squeaking point, too. Any thoughts? We've got over 100 members in one club and schedule events and classes year-round, including a number that are out of state and even out of country - should I just give up and put everything in my wife's name?
And, when seeking local counsel, what the heck kind of specialty is this?
H2Andy
Contributor
other than the Arizona law, which i am not familiar with, i concurr with AzAtty's
reading of the case.
but remember, the daughter still has to prove that her dad's death was due to the
negligence of the dive shop. this case doesn't mean the shop loses; it just means
they have to defend themselves in court.
reefraff: i don't know the answer off the top of my head (maybe AzAtty knows).
generally speaking, you can only be liable if you owe a duty to someone and you
breach that duty to their detriment. what duties you owe them depend on your
role and what "hat" you are wearing at the time. unfortunately, i don't know of
any clear cut answers.
i would suggest you talk to other clubs and their officers and see how they have
resolved the issue.
sorry i am so unhelpful.
reading of the case.
but remember, the daughter still has to prove that her dad's death was due to the
negligence of the dive shop. this case doesn't mean the shop loses; it just means
they have to defend themselves in court.
reefraff: i don't know the answer off the top of my head (maybe AzAtty knows).
generally speaking, you can only be liable if you owe a duty to someone and you
breach that duty to their detriment. what duties you owe them depend on your
role and what "hat" you are wearing at the time. unfortunately, i don't know of
any clear cut answers.
i would suggest you talk to other clubs and their officers and see how they have
resolved the issue.
sorry i am so unhelpful.
reefraff:
Unfortunately, I am not I licensed in every state, so I can't provide specific advice for a particular circumstance outside of Arizona or California (the states in which I am licensed). Otherwise, I'd be happy to do a free consult on the phone for a diving club.
Depends on the state. For the really good asset protection, though, you have to go offshore. Cook Islands trusts are particularly sexy. Safe deposit boxes in Colombia and corporations in the Caribbean can help, too. Maybe Drew would be the mail stop on Grand Cayman....
Personal injury defense/insurance defense. Good luck getting a consultation with them. They live underground and only come out to do the bidding of the evil insurance companies in the dark of night. Plaintiff's personal injury attorneys might consult with you. See if you can get a lawyer of the friendly neighborhood variety to join your club.
If something does go wrong, and you get taken down hard, don't be afraid of the "B" word--bankruptcy. You would be absolutely amazed at the kind of magic a good bankruptcy attorney can work. You can't use it too often, but it's the ultimate "get out of jail free" card for the vast majority of civil claims. Most people have a hard time making the decision to file a bankruptcy (as well they should), but it should give some comfort that there is a way out when it appears your back is to the wall.
H2Andy:
There are documented court cases where dive operators have won the case against them (negligience), but STILL forced to pay compensatory damages to the aggrieved party. I recall at least one case where the dive op went into bankruptcy due to this.
Makes you really wonder about our legal system...
I hate being in court especially with my butt on the line and I hate people refusing to take responsibility for what they do.
As an instructor though I seen a lot of things in the last few years. A student often places a good deal of faith in an instructor. When the instructors advice is followed and it's bad I personally would like to see some level of responsibility from bothe the instructor and the agencies.
Diving is being sold as being as safe as bowling. People believe it and, IMO, they do some pretty reckless things.
UYou can argue that they make the choice to dive and they choose their actions both during and after the class, but they also believe some of the crap that they're taught and in good faith trust the instructor.
In this case I'd like to hear what happened in the accident but what we read here is that the guy was with TWO instructors.
ok, the dude dies. Why did it take till the next day to find him? I'm not a lawyer but using text right out of the training manuals and training standards I could present a line of questioning that would do some real damage to the two instructors with two students who lost one. Now...the student didn't just die, they LOST him.
ok, something wierd could have happened but with some of the things I've seen in the last few years, believe me I have a really vivid picture in my mind. While vivid isn't the same as accurate, that's how I've been conditioned by the things that I've seen with my own eyes.
As distastful as I find legal action there often isn't any choice given that duals are against the law. Shoot I had a lady crunch the rear bumper of my new truck. The bumper costs a little over $500. My deductable is $500 and her insurance company has completely blown me off. I can't even get them on the phone. I'll have to take them to court myself and therir betting that I won't. I will.
My alarm company tried to screw me out of a couple thousand dollars pulling something that was obviously in violation of our contract. I talked to them nice for weeks and even offered a compromise just to make it easy. They wouldn't budge. I got a lawyer and it only took one phone call and they completely folded. They would have taken me for the whole thing if I would have let them and the legal system was the only legal recourse.
Dive training agencies are going to continue to maximize profit until they are forced to accept a little responsibility. I say this because I know something about training standards and diving and I don't think things are rigged in the best interest of the students.
Sorry. I'll stop now.
As an instructor though I seen a lot of things in the last few years. A student often places a good deal of faith in an instructor. When the instructors advice is followed and it's bad I personally would like to see some level of responsibility from bothe the instructor and the agencies.
Diving is being sold as being as safe as bowling. People believe it and, IMO, they do some pretty reckless things.
UYou can argue that they make the choice to dive and they choose their actions both during and after the class, but they also believe some of the crap that they're taught and in good faith trust the instructor.
In this case I'd like to hear what happened in the accident but what we read here is that the guy was with TWO instructors.
ok, the dude dies. Why did it take till the next day to find him? I'm not a lawyer but using text right out of the training manuals and training standards I could present a line of questioning that would do some real damage to the two instructors with two students who lost one. Now...the student didn't just die, they LOST him.
ok, something wierd could have happened but with some of the things I've seen in the last few years, believe me I have a really vivid picture in my mind. While vivid isn't the same as accurate, that's how I've been conditioned by the things that I've seen with my own eyes.
As distastful as I find legal action there often isn't any choice given that duals are against the law. Shoot I had a lady crunch the rear bumper of my new truck. The bumper costs a little over $500. My deductable is $500 and her insurance company has completely blown me off. I can't even get them on the phone. I'll have to take them to court myself and therir betting that I won't. I will.
My alarm company tried to screw me out of a couple thousand dollars pulling something that was obviously in violation of our contract. I talked to them nice for weeks and even offered a compromise just to make it easy. They wouldn't budge. I got a lawyer and it only took one phone call and they completely folded. They would have taken me for the whole thing if I would have let them and the legal system was the only legal recourse.
Dive training agencies are going to continue to maximize profit until they are forced to accept a little responsibility. I say this because I know something about training standards and diving and I don't think things are rigged in the best interest of the students.
Sorry. I'll stop now.
H2Andy
Contributor
archman:
i don't follow this. what was the basis for liability, do you know?
H2Andy:
I am very hazy on details, as I read the article in a scuba magazine a couple years back. Here goes.
1. Older diver died due to heart attack while on dive trip supervised by scuba professional.
2. Later found out that said diver had falsified medical form and had in fact preexisting history of heart condition.
3. Family of diver brought suit against dive op claiming negligience led to diver dying.
4. Legal ruling exonerated dive op from negligience claim.
5. Jury (or judge) decided that dive op should still make monetary compensation for pain and suffering of family.
6. Said compensation bankrupted dive op.
That was the gist of it. I think the incident happened somewhere on the west coast (I recall a lot of rocks). Didn't make me any happier with the U.S. legal system, just like this New Jersey ruling.
I was thinking, "Seems like something missing in this thread". And then I got it. Karl!! Ah, the good ol' days... Actually, he's made enough comments on this subject that I could just do a copy-paste and keep the action going.MikeFerrara:
Good news. I won't.
BTW, AzAtty, NWgratefullDivre's quote is even funnier isolated from the thread. Nice one!
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