Couple questions on a pony bottle for bail out

[PfcAJ]

It depends on what you're hunting. Something big like that might warrant turns.

The "thwack" of a speargun is a distinct sound too. Turn your attention to your buddy when you hear it. Hardly a big deal.

Youre re just being obtuse at this point.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

It depends on what you're hunting. Something big like that might warrant turns.

The "thwack" of a speargun is a distinct sound too. Turn your attention to your buddy when you hear it. Hardly a big deal.

Youre re just being obtuse at this point.

The ability to hunt effectively and still be safe without the CONSTANT dependence on another diver is VERY IMPORTANT in spearfishing. It is not obtuse or trivial at all. It is the crux of the matter and this issue of independence versus dependence IS why pony bottles are used by many people (spearfishing and otherwise)...

Furthermore, the fact that you seem to be so ambivalent about this most basic protocol of spearfishing.. take turns or both shoot what they see... is, in my opinion, very clear evidence that there must be no DIR protocol for spearfishing...

 

[mrdre]

...Once again, a lot of the noise you're hearing about it being "dangerous" to emulate any of the DIR techniques is from recent fundies grads that don't really know their ass from their elbow. ...

Straw man argument. Nobody was saying that spear fishing is so dangerous that it shouldn't be done. The point was, that when we talked about pony, then we heard "no, it's so bad, it's extra equipment, bad habbits, it's against DIR, against GUE, shouldn't do it". Yet all is proposed is to sling an extra small bottle. Then the spearfishing was brought up. "Now what about spearfishing?" The answer is "ow, that's fine, just sling a spear gun and you are absolute fine shooting at 80 pound fish, it's absolutely according to DIR/GUE, becuase DIR is just about BP/Wing and long hose".. But anybody with half brains will sense that something is wrong with this logic. Obviously shooting at a marine creature is "more dangerous" than just slinging a pony.

Your criticism if the new divers also isn't necessary valid. One could be diving for 50 years, worked everything out, perfected his diving skills. But he may not necessary follow the trends. The technology is improving, but because that diver already "knows everything better" isn't following it. Yet the new diver will learn the latest so advices from the older diver may not be suitable for the younger and not necessary the older diver will be "right". One GUE instructor told me: "You know who are the worst students? The instructors and those with thousands dives. They are opinionated, they "know everything". They are already built muscle memory for another techniques, they have hard time relearning, they argue. Yet the best are the fresh divers - they are empty, they are ready for the fresh knowledge". Also the newer divers are free from dogmas and tend to ask questions experienced divers were asking 40 years go. The answers could be different back then.

On the side note. Why GUE often call them "GUE" but not DIR.. They explain that on their web site. It's because there are so many different "DIR" methodologies and from GUE point they are not necessary "wrong", but different, so they suggested that using GUE instead of DIR is preferable to avoid confusion with another DIR techniques. UTD is also DIR. Nobody is "righter" than the other. But I may assume that people who "know everything already" aren't necessary following the web sites, trends, news anymore.

 

[Greg_Vic_Diver]

The ability to hunt effectively and still be safe without the CONSTANT dependence on another diver is VERY IMPORTANT in spearfishing. It is not obtuse or trivial at all. It is the crux of the matter and this issue of independence versus dependence IS why pony bottles are used by many people (spearfishing and otherwise)...

Furthermore, the fact that you seem to be so ambivalent about this most basic protocol of spearfishing.. take turns or both shoot what they see... is, in my opinion, very clear evidence that there must be no DIR protocol for spearfishing...

This is ridiculous. What does it matter if there isn't a DIR protocol? Figure out the best way to accomplish as a team while being safe and using the procedures and protocols as building blocks/guidelines and call it a day.

If you're trying to say that spearfishing is actually solo diving... well we all know there is no DIR protocol for that.

 

[DaleC]

So you suggest divers could figure out how to spearfish, but not use a pony... because that is soooooo much harder and danger prone.
Sheesh

Personally, I can't see GUE endorsing spearfishing because it goes against their exploration/conservation model of sub aquatic interaction. Not meant to criticize those that do, just that GUE is not focused in that direction.

And GUE will endorse solo diving as soon as it facilitates senior members goals, like RB's and adjustable harnesses.

---------- Post added July 30th, 2014 at 05:19 PM ----------

People who argue dir dominance in the recreational setting are playing a little bit with revisionist history.

Dir was developed as a technical solution to a technical problem - how to dive caves safely. There was no real focus on how to dive recreationally, safely. The recreational aspect is an add on that facilitates some general principles such as "beginning with the end in mind" and "standardization". All the thought and consideration went into technical solutions and the recreational diver just has to "go along for the ride", so to speak.

That's not a bad thing. Dir is a good system, and serves people well. But at the recreational level it is not the only system or even the "right" system; it is just one of many systems. The nature of recreational diving does not demand stringent adherence to such ideas as standardization, beginning with the end in mind universality etc... Other gear works equally well, solo diving is possible as is mixed team diving. When GUE became an agency, instead of an idea, recreational practices were defined to create a seamless transition within the agency. Not because they were absolutely needed at that level.

If one could wipe the slate clean, and if divers like those who originated dir came along and decided to create a purely recreational oriented system of best practices with no thought of uniting them to technical pursuits, it probably would not limit itself to long hoses, BP/W's, doubles or canlights. It would probably not see depth averaging in the same way or be as fixated on only diving within like minded circles.

All those things come from the technical realm downwards and do not really take into account the way recreational divers dive, in the real world. The majority of recreational divers only dive recreationally and will not proceed towards technical training or activities. Which is why, other than SB and a few cloisters of active divers, dir represents a minute fraction of today's recreational divers. Because it's gear and admonitions simply don't resonate with recreational reality. Some dir divers may be somewhat blind to this otherwise obvious fact because they tend to self select to only associate with like minded divers.

 

[Greg_Vic_Diver]

So you suggest divers could figure out how to spearfish, but not use a pony... because that is soooooo much harder and danger prone.
Sheesh

I can see you have some comprehension issues. Go back and read my very first post in the thread. I said you don't NEED to dive a pony if you do a,b and c.

 

[DaleC]

Maybe not everyone wants to spend thousands on training and equipment and restrict themselves to a technically oriented system and a small cadre of divers just so they can dive you're abc's. Maybe they are competent enough to just use a pony. That you find pony use so vexing doesn't speak to my slowness (er... comprehension). I figured it out on dive 26.

 

[lowviz]

... Personally, I can't see GUE endorsing spearfishing because it goes against their exploration/conservation model of sub aquatic interaction.

Valid. But some GUE practitioners do spearfish and lobster hunt. So it becomes an unsanctioned, but acceptable, option. Stage whisper: Ever see what people do to cows?

... And GUE will endorse solo diving as soon as it facilitates senior members goals, like RB's and adjustable harnesses.

Yes, but GUE/UTD moves at a highly considered glacial pace. Take donut wings for example:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bu...systems/165248-bp-w-opinions.html#post2369197

... All those things come from the technical realm downwards and do not really take into account the way recreational divers dive, in the real world.

But I think that they actually do. Recreational divers are trending towards becoming quick and dirty tech wannabees. Not so?

 

[Greg_Vic_Diver]

But I think that they actually do. Recreational divers are trending towards becoming quick and dirty tech wannabees. Not so?

Yes, I definitely think so also. This is shown with their full Rec programs and the fact the entire system is based on beginning with the end in mind. In my opinion its what makes it a strong system.

That you can buy a wing and bp for a single tank and use the same equipment with a couple tweaks all the way to doing 300' cave dives speaks volumes. It's actually cheaper over time to start this way from the get go.

 

[DaleC]

How many rec divers actually also do 300' cave dives? That represents the great bamboozle that dir apologists foist in these arguments. Most rec divers are not ever going to do real, committed technical diving.

In a fashion sense but not really. I see destination diving, guided trips, increased computer use etc...

But that's not really what I mean. Take standardization. An increasingly important consideration when technical diving as divers may share gear due to failure, know how to operate all gear, follow protocols without thinking etc... At the rec level this does not have the same weight. A team can consist of a BP/W, a SM diver and a poodle jacket diver and operate safely with a modicum of intelligence. One can dive air or EAN 32 and not risk toxing or accidentally breathing bottom gas shallow.

Take tanks. Technically, the case has been made that manifolded doubles provide the best configuration (except for restrictions) and are mostly universally adopted. But that is not the case recreationally. Divers can safely use a number of options other than MD's.

The use of drysuits over wetsuits. Technically DS's win because they provide additional lift, don't compress and a diver will be less affected by cold. Recreationally, with some exceptions, a wetsuit works just fine.

The considerations are different and the pros and cons that each piece of gear offer can be weighted differently.