Couple questions on a pony bottle for bail out

[rivers]

I think many GUE instructors themselves are missing the key point of GUE. GUE is a holistic methodology. For some reason many GUE folks completely miss this point. Holistic means: all or nothing. All the divers must be GUE trained and have all the equipment must be according to GUE. Giving advises to folks that are not GUE can be very dangerous.

Suggesting somebody to have a long hose without training can be dangerous. It's better to have short hose and follow OW procedure in this case. Suggesting not to have pony to a single tank recreational diver who dives with newbie instabuddies, while yourself diving doubles with very well trained crew is not right. Requiring a person to clip SPG to the left ring while he is not trained to clip/unclip it all the time is asking for trouble. Etc. etc..

Nowhere in the GUE ethos does it say you must only dive with other GUE divers. This is fallacy which leads others into believing that GUE divers think they are better than anyone else and are some elite agency. Most people I know, regardless of agency, are pretty picky about who they will do big dives with. I know I am, and I don't limit myself to solely GUE trained divers.
For recreational MDL/NDL dives shallower than 20m, I will pretty much dive with anyone. There is a wreck surveying and mapping project that I am a part of. Yes, it is managed and run by a few members from GUE-UK, but it is open to anyone certified to partake in. We have 2 boats going out on the next project weekend in October with 24 divers trained by at least 5 different agencies (GUE, PADI, BSAC, TDI, IANTD), with experience from newly qualified BSAC ocean divers to divers with tech certs from a variety of agencies. And I can guarantee we'll have an awesome weekend.

 

[PfcAJ]

You don't have to be GUE trained to be DIR. GUE teacher DIR diving, but there is more than one way to get there.

Kwinter, I call BS too man. Sry. I know you don't like GUE, but "why the light is on the left hand" is day one stuff.

 

[mrdre]

Nowhere in the GUE ethos does it say you must only dive with other GUE divers.....

It's not what I was saying. I was saying that GUE techniques are designed and are effective if everybody is GUE trained and equipped. I'm not saying GUE folks don't dive with rec divers. They happily dive with me, yet I still have a long road to walk to consider myself GUE. I was saying that some GUE techniques for non-GUE folks are not necessary and could be actually dangerous. Thus "holistic approach": all or nothing. "Nothing" means "these dives should not be called GUE and therefore some GUE techniques are not applicable".

 

[PfcAJ]

You sound like a recent fundies grad.

 

[uncfnp]

I think many GUE instructors themselves are missing the key point of GUE. GUE is a holistic methodology. For some reason many GUE folks completely miss this point. Holistic means: all or nothing. All the divers must be GUE trained and have all the equipment according to GUE. Giving advises to folks that are not GUE can be very dangerous.

Suggesting somebody to have a long hose without training can be dangerous. It's better to have short hose and follow OW procedure in this case. Suggesting not to have pony to a single tank recreational diver who dives with newbie instabuddies, while yourself diving doubles with very well trained crew is not right. Requiring a person to clip SPG to the left ring while he is not trained to clip/unclip it all the time is asking for trouble. Etc. etc..

You sound like a recent fundies grad.

He does bring up an interesting point though, that perhaps a diver of one type of gear configuration and philosophy, no matter how knowledgable, should not advise technique and procedure to a diver with a different gear configuration and diving philosophy, especially in a thread dedicated to a very specific gear question.

 

[DaleC]

Really when I sum it up, in my opinion, the pony bottle just keeps the “it’s only about me” mentality going. If a failure occurs, there is no planning for adequate gas for someone else, no time built into the gas calculations in a pony to signal your team mates and let them know you have a problem before you make a run for it. In my opinion, you are less safe “bailing out” by yourself on a pony than finding your team mate, getting a known working regulator from them and safely ascending together (and having the other team mate there to assist if any other issues arise).

Your lack of understanding is astounding. I could counter by stating people dive with scooters because they have weak leg muscles and are too lazy to kick with their fins - it is as logical as your remarks but I respect my fellow divers too much to serve them that sort of swill.

 

[jadairiii]

...Suggesting somebody to have a long hose without training can be dangerous........Requiring a person to clip SPG to the left ring while he is not trained to clip/unclip it all the time is asking for trouble. Etc. etc..

"Training" someone to dive a long hose or clip/unclip an spg takes about 3 min. Did a beach dive last weekend with a friend that has not been diving in 5 years, never been DIR rigged. Put him in a complete DIR set up with long hose. Put him in the gear at the car, explained the procedure and went diving. Nice 25' max depth beach dive with just a single Alu 80. :83 min bottom time and came up on the beach within min gas rules. Guy was perfectly trimmed throughout the dive. This is not rocket science.

 

[Greg_Vic_Diver]

Your lack of understanding is astounding. I could counter by stating people dive with scooters because they have weak leg muscles and are too lazy to kick with their fins - it is as logical as your remarks but I respect my fellow divers too much to serve them that sort of swill.

Oh really?? I do understand that I see diver after diver adding pony bottles to their rigs with no understanding about proper gas planning. Pretty soon those same divers then use the pony bottles to extend their dives..again without the understanding of how much gas they actually need to get to the surface (or back to the starting point) or what procedure they are going to follow when a "bailout" occurs. In fact most of the arguments I've seen here can be addressed by following your basic OW training. In basic OW you are you not taught about having the backup octopus in the golden triangle located on the front of a diver? Also taught is reviewing each other's equipment, correct operation and placement before the dive. The fact you choose to dive with someone who doesn't follow the training or yourself do not follow your training is another issue; covering up this issue with the addition of another piece of equipment without addressing the root cause perpetuates the problem. You don't need to be a GUE diver to do any of the above.

 

[mrdre]

Are you saying that people should not have pony bottles at all? Just what's your point? [I know it's against GUE mantra, but is there any argument beside that?] And so you see divers after divers adding pony bottles.. are they all dying? what's so bad is happening to them? And so I've seen and dove with DMs who dive every day since 60-ies and who always carry a pony. So? They say they carry a pony not only for themselves, but also to hand it to out of air diver. Just what's wrong with that?

 

[DaleC]

You should hang out with better divers... The people I dive with don't sound like that.