Couple questions on a pony bottle for bail out

[PfcAJ]

Greg,

I have watched your video, and I have looked at divers practicing techniques such as yours in the pool. Note in the photos that I am very familiar with wearing lots of equipment, and diving doubles. If you'll look at the photos of me in my double AL 72s in the 1980s in Clear Lake, you'll note that I am fairly well balanced and in control of buoyancy, without the use of your techniques. Believe it or not, the BC I'm wearing is the original back-mounted BC by Bill Herder, Deep Sea Bills in Newport, Oregon (Bill is now deceased), where he built the BC into the back of my wet suit (the white portion of my wet suit is the BC). It is more streamlined than the BCs I see in your videos, and provides the same basic function. At that time, Bill told me "I've become a 'push-button diver.'" That was what we called the type of diving your are doing at GUE in the 1970s when BCs were still being developed as a concept (and which I published on in NAUI News).

Concerning the divers practicing GUE/DIR techniques, we have a pool that is 18 feet deep (competition diving pool) and 50 meters by 25 yards wide. In the winter on Sundays they open it up to diving and kayaking. I have observed GUI divers, and they are obsessed with staying only about a foot off the bottom while "finning" along an a snail's pace. They rarely notice me in the water, and when I wave they don't acknowledge it at all. They are constantly looking at their gauges, and sometimes one another. I literally swim circles around them without building up an CO2 debt, and at my age that says something. These guys come across as arrogant and egotistical, to the point that they won't talk to or even acknowledge someone like me diving an antique double hose regulator, but swimming around them while they stare at their gauges.

I do have one regulator with a 7 foot long hose, but it is an original Calypso balanced-diaphragm regulator, with the original Calypso second stage as my primary on the long hose, and a second generation Calypso on a neck strap as my backup regulator. The gauge on it is an original submersible pressure gauge, with a round dial that dates back to the early 1970s, but still works fine. I have dived it several times, and it still works extremely well. I hope to dive it some day with someone set up as you describe.

Concerning fins and finning techniques, your techniques (frog kick and modified flutter kick) are great in confined environments where kicking up any silt is a life-threatening situation. But they are not really good for distance swimming underwater (ever done a timed 1500 yard or 2000 yard swim in doubles--I have in the U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers). I have done a lot of study of finning, swim fin types over the year, and even developed my own scoop fins (see link). But they should be only one or two tools in a whole toolkit for swimming underwater. I would really like to see someone use the frog kick in the river currents I dive, and see how "efficient" they really are.

Now, about twin tanks--I have used them and continue to do so, but they are very, very heavy for the type of diving I do. On my dive Friday, I suited up at my car, walked down a steep pathway, crossed over river rocks, and down to the river's entry point. When I got out, I had to go up a rock face to a small trail, climb up about fifty feet of rock and dirt to get to the paved pathway back up (another 50-100 feet climb) to the roadway to walk back to my car. I do this with double 45s, my heaviest tanks, but it is quite a workout. To do so with anything heavier would be a bit much. Single tanks or my PJ tanks (which I used Friday) are much lighter, and much more enjoyable at my age.

Back on point, a single tank with a pony bottle would do just fine for my type of diving; I however use a single tank with a J-valve up, and that becomes my reserve.


SeaRat

Don't be bamboozled, we're not all like that. I've got a DA Aquamaster in my bag-o-scuba gear at the moment. I think its bad ass.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

PfcAJ,

I appreciate your comment. I am open to diving the GUE methods, but I have developed my own style over the last thirty or so years, and there has to be a real reason (other than someone saying to do it this way) for me to adopt different styles. I definitely would if I were going diving you one of you. I find that on every dive I make, I learn something new. Thanks,

SeaRat

 

[PfcAJ]

PfcAJ,

I appreciate your comment. I am open to diving the GUE methods, but I have developed my own style over the last thirty or so years, and there has to be a real reason (other than someone saying to do it this way) for me to adopt different styles. I definitely would if I were going diving you one of you. I find that on every dive I make, I learn something new. Thanks,

SeaRat

Indeed. There's a "reason" for all the GUE/DIR things (I can't speak to what people do in a pool, though) that's pretty well thought out. Certainly nothing is "because I told you so", but I think that some people definitely do it because someone told them to, much the same way a new PADI diver will do things because their instructor told them so.

In any case, vintage regs are cool and anyone who won't talk to you because of it can f off

 

[kwinter]

Indeed. There's a "reason" for all the GUE/DIR things (I can't speak to what people do in a pool, though) that's pretty well thought out. Certainly nothing is "because I told you so"

During a Fundies course, I asked someone why the lighthead should be on the left hand. He hemmed and hawed for a while, but couldn't come up with a logical explanation. The best he could do was "we all do it this way so we all have the same configuration."

That guy was the instructor for the class. And the reason I vowed never to have anything to do with GUE.

 

[LiteHedded]

During a Fundies course, I asked someone why the lighthead should be on the left hand. He hemmed and hawed for a while, but couldn't come up with a logical explanation. The best he could do was "we all do it this way so we all have the same configuration."

That guy was the instructor for the class. And the reason I vowed never to have anything to do with GUE.

who was the instructor? i'm afraid I need to call BS on this. everyone knows why the lighthead is on the left hand. it's even in the book you have to read to take the class...

 

[kwinter]

Don't know the instructor's name. It was at Dutch about 5 years ago. My buddy was in the class. I was just an interested bystander who asked the question. I do know that Bob Sherwood was at Dutch that day, but he wasn't the instructor. No BS. It happened exactly like that.

 

[Greg_Vic_Diver]

Don't know the instructor's name. It was at Dutch about 5 years ago. My buddy was in the class. I was just an interested bystander who asked the question. I do know that Bob Sherwood was at Dutch that day, but he wasn't the instructor. No BS. It happened exactly like that.

 

Kwinter,

I’m sorry to hear about the bad experience with a response to a relatively simple question.

 

There are numerous reasons for the light head to be on the left hand – this is a pony bottle thread, but I actually believe this is somewhat loosely related since the main reason deals with sharing gas in the event of an OOG scenario for a buddy.

 

Reasons for the light head on the left hand:

(1)    Main Reason: So you don’t blind your buddy when you donate gas (when donating gas to share)

(2)    So you can quickly shut down the right post (and isolate) and signal at the same time if an issue arises

(3)    So you can signal while scootering – scooter is held in the right hand

(4)    So you can use the light to shine on your gauge on the right hand (less of an issue now with backlit bottom timers)

There may be others, but that’s just off the top of my head.

 

I guess the difference here is the mentality of everything revolves around being able to help each other out in case of an issue.  Business schools and research studies have shown time and time again that better results are obtained with a team rather than individuals.  Think Navy Seals, sports teams, rock climbers, Board of Directors etc…

 

Really when I sum it up, in my opinion, the pony bottle just keeps the “it’s only about me” mentality going. If a failure occurs, there is no planning for adequate gas for someone else, no time built into the gas calculations in a pony to signal your team mates and let them know you have a problem before you make a run for it.  In my opinion, you are less safe “bailing out” by yourself on a pony than finding your team mate, getting a known working regulator from them and safely ascending together (and having the other team mate there to assist if any other issues arise).

 

Students are taught in OW to share gas with a buddy in an emergency and go for the octopus as option 1 (yes other options are taught, but the octopus of a buddy is option 1).  I think if proper gas planning, gas sharing and gas management was taught and became more of a focus, we’d have safer, more fun dives.  I know that I do now.

 

[mrdre]

During a Fundies course, I asked someone why the lighthead should be on the left hand. He hemmed and hawed for a while, but couldn't come up with a logical explanation. The best he could do was "we all do it this way so we all have the same configuration."

That guy was the instructor for the class. And the reason I vowed never to have anything to do with GUE.

You just didn't do your homework. They explain that many many times in their writing material (google would help too). The main reason: you donate your air with your right hand. If you have your light on your right hand you will blind the desperate diver swimming to you for air. The other reasons:

2. Your right hand is "working" hand. You don't want to be sending unnecessary "alarm" signals with your light while you are simply "doing something" like turning and tilting it while you trying to look at your depth gauge/timer.
3. You hold on to your scooter using your right hand, so you need your light in the left hand.

These are just few reasons popped in my mind after taking just one GUE course. I really cannot believe your GUE instructor didn't know that. Maybe he didn't understand your question. They explain it very often. So far they never answered to me "because we do it that way", there is always a reason why they do things certain way.

---------- Post added July 28th, 2014 at 10:59 AM ----------

...

Really when I sum it up, in my opinion, the pony bottle just keeps the “it’s only about me” mentality going. If a failure occurs, there is no planning for adequate gas for someone else, no time built into the gas calculations in a pony to signal your team mates and let them know you have a problem before you make a run for it. In my opinion, you are less safe “bailing out” by yourself on a pony than finding your team mate, getting a known working regulator from them and safely ascending together (and having the other team mate there to assist if any other issues arise).


Students are taught in OW to share gas with a buddy in an emergency and go for the octopus as option 1 (yes other options are taught, but the octopus of a buddy is option 1). I think if proper gas planning, gas sharing and gas management was taught and became more of a focus, we’d have safer, more fun dives. I know that I do now.

So... to sum it up. You are saying that for a simple recreational dive not having a pony bottle is SAFER than having one?

Why do you guys assume that people in recreaional dives dive with GUE instructors? You often dive with people you don't know, you don't know their equipment, their consumption rate. I still didn't hear the answer "Why not carry a pony?". In OW they teach to share the "octopus". Right.. a buddy enters the water dragging the octopus through the sand, hitting it to the rocks, never taking care of it, never using it, never checking if it works. You are out of air, you swim to your buddy, you have 10 seconds to live and now you grabbed your buddy's octopus just to realize that it's full of sand and simply not working. I saw a guy who simply tied his octopus to his BCD. I've seen a guy who stuck it almost under his tank because it "bothered him". You dive with folks like that. So.. "Why not carry a pony?"

 

[jadairiii]

Don't know the instructor's name. It was at Dutch about 5 years ago. My buddy was in the class. I was just an interested bystander who asked the question. I.....No BS. It happened exactly like that.

Maybe the instructor was the Easter Bunny? Santa Claus? A leprechaun?

 

[mrdre]

I think many GUE instructors themselves are missing the key point of GUE. GUE is a holistic methodology. For some reason many GUE folks completely miss this point. Holistic means: all or nothing. All the divers must be GUE trained and have all the equipment according to GUE. Giving advises to folks that are not GUE can be very dangerous.

Suggesting somebody to have a long hose without training can be dangerous. It's better to have short hose and follow OW procedure in this case. Suggesting not to have pony to a single tank recreational diver who dives with newbie instabuddies, while yourself diving doubles with very well trained crew is not right. Requiring a person to clip SPG to the left ring while he is not trained to clip/unclip it all the time is asking for trouble. Etc. etc..