Could be trouble for leisurepro and others
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pnw_diver
Contributor
The software contained within a dive computer certainly is covered under copyright law.
2 Big 2 Fail
Contributor
Let me point something out here. I'll try to get it close to correct. Do not interpret the SCOTUS decision as necessarily an indication of how the Supreme Court would have decided the issues in the case. They simply failed to overturn the 9th Circuit. While that certainly works in favor of the manufacturer in this case, it's not an agreement that the verdict was correct on the merits.
Unless there is a fundamental Constitutional question, it common for the Supreme Court to refrain from interfering with lower federal court decisions, even if most of the justices would have ruled differently from the federal district court where the case was tried. The Court's role in this sort of case is to settle an issue when two federal circuits have taken clearly contrary positions, which hasn't happened here. Should another circuit find differently from the 9th, the SCOTUS would generally be bound to make a determination of which position was correct. The Supreme Court does not rehear everything that makes it though the circuit courts. In fact, they hear very little of what is submitted to them.
The circuit courts are appeals courts from decisions in the district courts. Circuit courts don't hold hearing. They don't hear witnesses, so they don't have "trials." They only hear legal arguments by attorneys, mostly on paper and occasionally in person. The district court hears and decides the case, and that decision is reviewed by the circuit court for legal sufficiency. The Supreme Court won't second guess that, unless they have to settle a conflict among circuits or with the Constitution.
Nothing in the Supreme Court decision should be taken to have any national effect. The 9th made some new law in that circuit (pretty much the West Coast - Costco's HQ is in Washington state) and only in that circuit. We won't know if that's the law in any other circuit until a similar case is brought in another circuit, and we won't likely know what the Supreme Court has to say about the merits until there are two circuits in conflict. The circuits very often disagree on all sorts of issues. Sometimes, the Supreme Court is just waiting for a nice clear-cut distinction between lower courts. They often wait for just the right case before hearing the issues.
So, this is a significant case. But it's far from the last word, except for Omega and Costco, and maybe not even that. It also signals that anyone wanting to test it in another circuit has to be prepared to risk a very large sum in legal costs to take it all the way up. There were some 17 amicus briefs plus the US Solicitor General's brief, which gives you an idea how many folks have dogs in the hunt and how complex (expensive) it can get. That takes a lot of motivation, and are most scuba gear makers really distressed about who sells their stuff? For that matter, how many in other fields are really worried about it?
There's been a lot of talk about LiesurePro as an example of online scuba marketing. LeisurePro/Adorama is in NYC, and the 9th Circuit doesn't make law there. And note that Costco won the case by summary judgment in the Central California US District Court, a decision that the 9th Circuit reversed.
Unless there is a fundamental Constitutional question, it common for the Supreme Court to refrain from interfering with lower federal court decisions, even if most of the justices would have ruled differently from the federal district court where the case was tried. The Court's role in this sort of case is to settle an issue when two federal circuits have taken clearly contrary positions, which hasn't happened here. Should another circuit find differently from the 9th, the SCOTUS would generally be bound to make a determination of which position was correct. The Supreme Court does not rehear everything that makes it though the circuit courts. In fact, they hear very little of what is submitted to them.
The circuit courts are appeals courts from decisions in the district courts. Circuit courts don't hold hearing. They don't hear witnesses, so they don't have "trials." They only hear legal arguments by attorneys, mostly on paper and occasionally in person. The district court hears and decides the case, and that decision is reviewed by the circuit court for legal sufficiency. The Supreme Court won't second guess that, unless they have to settle a conflict among circuits or with the Constitution.
Nothing in the Supreme Court decision should be taken to have any national effect. The 9th made some new law in that circuit (pretty much the West Coast - Costco's HQ is in Washington state) and only in that circuit. We won't know if that's the law in any other circuit until a similar case is brought in another circuit, and we won't likely know what the Supreme Court has to say about the merits until there are two circuits in conflict. The circuits very often disagree on all sorts of issues. Sometimes, the Supreme Court is just waiting for a nice clear-cut distinction between lower courts. They often wait for just the right case before hearing the issues.
So, this is a significant case. But it's far from the last word, except for Omega and Costco, and maybe not even that. It also signals that anyone wanting to test it in another circuit has to be prepared to risk a very large sum in legal costs to take it all the way up. There were some 17 amicus briefs plus the US Solicitor General's brief, which gives you an idea how many folks have dogs in the hunt and how complex (expensive) it can get. That takes a lot of motivation, and are most scuba gear makers really distressed about who sells their stuff? For that matter, how many in other fields are really worried about it?
There's been a lot of talk about LiesurePro as an example of online scuba marketing. LeisurePro/Adorama is in NYC, and the 9th Circuit doesn't make law there. And note that Costco won the case by summary judgment in the Central California US District Court, a decision that the 9th Circuit reversed.
Rythmmaker
Contributor
Conspiracy theorists seem to be one of the most vocal groups on Scubaboard!
You certainly have every right to voice your opinion - but I wonder how many people out there (silent or otherwise) actually:
1. Appreciate their local dive shop.
2. Got into the sport initially after walking into a LDS, and signing up for certification classes.
3. Appreciate that there is someone close by (no shipping required) who can service my gear.
4. Likes being able to go sit down with someone at my LDS and ask questions and put my hands on gear - maybe even take it for a "test dive" in the pool.
I know I am sometimes paying a bit more for stuff I buy in the store vs what I can find on-line. I'm OK with that. I want them to be successful and stay around.
If you are one of the people who come in to your LDS, check out the in-stock merchandise, ask a lot of questions to get educated, only to use that education to buy on-line because you found it for 5$ less at Leisure Pro - then realize that when your LDS goes Tango-Uniform and you have no place to go where you can actually touch and feel the products you are interested in - no more free info and local service - you will have only yourself to blame. You may not care, but I'd bet there are plenty of us out here who would be very sad indeed.
Please don't use the resources and expertise of my LDS and then fail to support them. They are not getting rich - they are going out of business in droves. I want mine to be around and I appreciate the risks and hard work that the owner of my LDS has put into his business.
I hope I'm not the only one that feels a sense of loyalty and appreciation for the people who got me into the sport. They have always taken very good care of me, and I try to give them as much business as I can.
But that's just me.
You certainly have every right to voice your opinion - but I wonder how many people out there (silent or otherwise) actually:
1. Appreciate their local dive shop.
2. Got into the sport initially after walking into a LDS, and signing up for certification classes.
3. Appreciate that there is someone close by (no shipping required) who can service my gear.
4. Likes being able to go sit down with someone at my LDS and ask questions and put my hands on gear - maybe even take it for a "test dive" in the pool.
I know I am sometimes paying a bit more for stuff I buy in the store vs what I can find on-line. I'm OK with that. I want them to be successful and stay around.
If you are one of the people who come in to your LDS, check out the in-stock merchandise, ask a lot of questions to get educated, only to use that education to buy on-line because you found it for 5$ less at Leisure Pro - then realize that when your LDS goes Tango-Uniform and you have no place to go where you can actually touch and feel the products you are interested in - no more free info and local service - you will have only yourself to blame. You may not care, but I'd bet there are plenty of us out here who would be very sad indeed.
Please don't use the resources and expertise of my LDS and then fail to support them. They are not getting rich - they are going out of business in droves. I want mine to be around and I appreciate the risks and hard work that the owner of my LDS has put into his business.
I hope I'm not the only one that feels a sense of loyalty and appreciation for the people who got me into the sport. They have always taken very good care of me, and I try to give them as much business as I can.
But that's just me.
While I have no clue what your post has to do with this thread, I'm going to offer my opinion.
I am pro good LDS.
I was trained by and originally worked for an exceptional LDS. I moved to a bigger city and was sorely disappointed by my new LDS options. I willingly made 2 hour trips (one way) to buy my gear from my LDS.
When I was offered my position at LP, I asked the owner of my old LDS for his "blessing". He gave me some good natured grief, but said he didn't see LP as competition. If you do a price comparison of their products with ours, there is typically less than a 10% difference.
Now when I go to the LDS's in my current city and many I've visited in other cities, the service is below what I expect out of a niche retail outlet and prices are regularly 35%+ higher than our prices (if they're even in stock).
Now, when I worked in my old LDS, I hated it when people came in to pick brains then ordered online. But in my 4+ years there, I can count on one hand the times that happened. We had the knowledge, the service, the prices and the product, so people saw no reason to go online.
If you have customers that are buying from us to save $5, I would suggest a look at the other aspects of your shop to figure out why people are buying from us instead.
I'm sorry, bad service and price gouging should not be rewarded. LP is an innovator just like Amazon has almost put book stores out of business and iTunes is the most popular way to get our music instead of Tower Records. In my home town, we have Powell's Books (a still very successful book store despite Amazon) and Everyday Music (which is always busy despite iTunes). Good service and reasonable prices can succeed regardless of our prices.
Before I started with LP, I started NewSCUBAMarketing.com to help dive centers and instructors to market online (where our customers are) to be successful despite people like LP. I offered my services FOR FREE to countless dive centers. Not a one did a thing. If we allow dive centers who refuse to innovate to run this industry, the industry will suffer.
I want to see this entire industry succeed. The truth is we get divers into more gear. Statistically divers who own gear dive more, on trips and in classes, which feeds back to the LDS. A symbiotic relationship CAN exist.
Sorry for taking the bait and continuing the off topic discussion, I'm just doing my job
I am pro good LDS.
I was trained by and originally worked for an exceptional LDS. I moved to a bigger city and was sorely disappointed by my new LDS options. I willingly made 2 hour trips (one way) to buy my gear from my LDS.
When I was offered my position at LP, I asked the owner of my old LDS for his "blessing". He gave me some good natured grief, but said he didn't see LP as competition. If you do a price comparison of their products with ours, there is typically less than a 10% difference.
Now when I go to the LDS's in my current city and many I've visited in other cities, the service is below what I expect out of a niche retail outlet and prices are regularly 35%+ higher than our prices (if they're even in stock).
Now, when I worked in my old LDS, I hated it when people came in to pick brains then ordered online. But in my 4+ years there, I can count on one hand the times that happened. We had the knowledge, the service, the prices and the product, so people saw no reason to go online.
If you have customers that are buying from us to save $5, I would suggest a look at the other aspects of your shop to figure out why people are buying from us instead.
I'm sorry, bad service and price gouging should not be rewarded. LP is an innovator just like Amazon has almost put book stores out of business and iTunes is the most popular way to get our music instead of Tower Records. In my home town, we have Powell's Books (a still very successful book store despite Amazon) and Everyday Music (which is always busy despite iTunes). Good service and reasonable prices can succeed regardless of our prices.
Before I started with LP, I started NewSCUBAMarketing.com to help dive centers and instructors to market online (where our customers are) to be successful despite people like LP. I offered my services FOR FREE to countless dive centers. Not a one did a thing. If we allow dive centers who refuse to innovate to run this industry, the industry will suffer.
I want to see this entire industry succeed. The truth is we get divers into more gear. Statistically divers who own gear dive more, on trips and in classes, which feeds back to the LDS. A symbiotic relationship CAN exist.
Sorry for taking the bait and continuing the off topic discussion, I'm just doing my job
Rythmmaker
Contributor
I appreciate your counterpoint, Nick. Always three sides to every disagreement - Pro, Con and the "real deal." Just to make clear - it's not "my" shop. I am not a retailer and don't work in the industry in ANY capacity. And I appreciate the service that on-line merchants provide to under-served areas of the country. I owe LP an apology for singling out the company. I don't mean to disparage your company or you in any way.
What gripes me is when I see people coming into the shop I patronize, and using up a lot of the owner's time and expertise to get an education about the gear he has for sale - then leaving the shop and sending their business to a discount operation because it was slightly less expensive.
It is my wish that when people find good service and and knowledgeable staff plus an in-store inventory that they consider that those things have inherent value and make it worth paying a little bit more than the cheapest seller on the internet.
Please accept my apology for seeming to take a cheap shot a particular company. I should know better.
What gripes me is when I see people coming into the shop I patronize, and using up a lot of the owner's time and expertise to get an education about the gear he has for sale - then leaving the shop and sending their business to a discount operation because it was slightly less expensive.
It is my wish that when people find good service and and knowledgeable staff plus an in-store inventory that they consider that those things have inherent value and make it worth paying a little bit more than the cheapest seller on the internet.
Please accept my apology for seeming to take a cheap shot a particular company. I should know better.
Thank you for voicing your opinion. My lds closed it's doors because of the VERY reason you just described. I could tell you how many times that happened. ESPECIALLY with the Scubapro line. they gave us a rock bottom price that we could sell for. If we got caught selling cheaper, we were threatened that our distributorship would be taken from us. guess what? The discount on-line retailers were always cheaper than we were allowed to sell our gear. we closed our doors 12/01/10.
R
redacted
Guest
So how did your LDS figure that it was better to close than to risk losing the distributorship?
that was just an example. the online reailers did that with all of the lines. because our shop was small, the cost that we could buy at was still beaten by the online retailers almost everytime. even when our reps gave us a price quote and told us that "nobody' could sell it at a lower price, the online outlets beat that price 90% of the time. Scubapro was the only mfr. that threatened to yank the line.
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Is this correct? You (The LDS) could not purchase the SP or AL product at a cost that was lower than what was sold retail on the internet? If this is the case then there must be tiered pricing for dealers and the online dealers must have huge buying power of that SP or AL product.
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