Could be trouble for leisurepro and others

[Lorenzoid]

What if the logo were removed?

That indeed might be a solution. There might be other issues to consider, though. In removing an "artistic" logo (that is, something subject to copyright protection) that also functions as the manufacturer's trademark, there might be some argument that the retailer is running afoul of trademark laws.

 

[theduckguru]

This is another examply of our "free trade" congress eroneously believing that the road to properiety is thru the increased protection of intellectual property instead of producing goods.

 

[Rythmmaker]

First off - let me say that I don't work in the industry, never have. I don't own or work for a dive shop. I consider myself a savvy consumer and I don't like paying any more than I have to for anything.

I may be niaive; but it seems to me that the two manufacturers in question have determined that in their own best interest it makes good sense to rely on a LDS to both recommend product to people who walk-in the store to get certified and have no idea what equipment is required and then to service the gear after the sale. So a person (the sales staff at the LDS) takes the time to educate the customer and explain what is needed and how it all works and then also to provide the proper training to use the equipment safely. Furthermore, most folks - experienced divers or not - don't have the skills or training to properly service the equipment regularly and keep it properly maintained.

So there is a real and legitimate need for a local dive shop with training and service available.

There are also a fair and growing number of divers who bristle at the thought of letting a dive shop make a fair profit, and grouse about paying anything close to retail prices. They know what they want, don't need a salesperson to tell them what to buy and like having choices in product offerings and paying deeply discounted prices.

So there will always be some company out there who wants to sell to them and will try to find a way to offer products for sale using the lowest overhead possible and try to discount it as much as possible to attract the buyer.

In my industry, there are NUMEROUS instances where the cost of warranty, insurance, sales, marketing, support, and contingencies (incuding defending against frivolous lawsuits) are all factored into the cost of good sold through distribution.

Many times those same products are sold outside the country for significantly lower prices and then somehow find their way back and are sold as "grey market" products. The process makes it very difficult for local US dealers to compete.

As much as there exists suspicion that back-door deals are being cut with on-line retailers directly from the manufacturer, and while some manufacturers DO cave-in and sell to the chop shops, it seems to me that SP and AL have too much to loose to be guilty of the practice. Doing so is like eating their young - it undermines the relationships they have with their core dealers and would eventually seriously erode their own sales - in the long term at least.

I am happy and proud to support my LDS. I don't always buy everything there - accessories and disposable items I shop for prices - but on my regs and BC I want to know I can get them serviced and I appreciate having someone I can call or visit for advice, and I don't mind paying a bit more for the privelege.

That's my 2 PSI.

 

[redacted]

First off - let me say that I don't work in the industry, never have. I don't own or work for a dive shop. I consider myself a savvy consumer and I don't like paying any more than I have to for anything.

I may be niaive; but it seems to me that the two manufacturers in question have determined that in their own best interest it makes good sense to rely on a LDS to both recommend product to people who walk-in the store to get certified and have no idea what equipment is required and then to service the gear after the sale. So a person (the sales staff at the LDS) takes the time to educate the customer and explain what is needed and how it all works and then also to provide the proper training to use the equipment safely. Furthermore, most folks - experienced divers or not - don't have the skills or training to properly service the equipment regularly and keep it properly maintained.

So there is a real and legitimate need for a local dive shop with training and service available.

There are also a fair and growing number of divers who bristle at the thought of letting a dive shop make a fair profit, and grouse about paying anything close to retail prices. They know what they want, don't need a salesperson to tell them what to buy and like having choices in product offerings and paying deeply discounted prices.

So there will always be some company out there who wants to sell to them and will try to find a way to offer products for sale using the lowest overhead possible and try to discount it as much as possible to attract the buyer.

In my industry, there are NUMEROUS instances where the cost of warranty, insurance, sales, marketing, support, and contingencies (incuding defending against frivolous lawsuits) are all factored into the cost of good sold through distribution.

Many times those same products are sold outside the country for significantly lower prices and then somehow find their way back and are sold as "grey market" products. The process makes it very difficult for local US dealers to compete.

As much as there exists suspicion that back-door deals are being cut with on-line retailers directly from the manufacturer, and while some manufacturers DO cave-in and sell to the chop shops, it seems to me that SP and AL have too much to loose to be guilty of the practice. Doing so is like eating their young - it undermines the relationships they have with their core dealers and would eventually seriously erode their own sales - in the long term at least.

I am happy and proud to support my LDS. I don't always buy everything there - accessories and disposable items I shop for prices - but on my regs and BC I want to know I can get them serviced and I appreciate having someone I can call or visit for advice, and I don't mind paying a bit more for the privelege.

That's my 2 PSI.

Interesting hypothesis.

But if Scubaro and Aqualung have too much to lose, then why do they not stop these grey market sales. Perhaps they could serial number their merchandise so it could be tracked. Ooh, most of the grey market items already have serial numbers!!!!!

For Scubapro and Aqualung, Lieisurepro is probably their largest retailer and they would feel the loss were they to lose that outlet. The companies receive their profits regardless of whether their merchandise is sold through LP or some LDS. In fact, with LP they have less concern (and cost) with warranty and free parts issues. The only real loser is the LDS that thought the manufacturer would provide them the market protection their dealer agreement implies.

BTW, what is a "fair profit" and what does that have to do with consumers' buying decisions?

 

[tridacna]

This is another examply of our "free trade" congress eroneously believing that the road to properiety is thru the increased protection of intellectual property instead of producing goods.

What the heck did "our free trade congress" have to do with this? This was a Supreme Court decision. I'm not sure that Scalia, Roberts et al are left wing trade activists.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

It's like pulling teeth around here. Aqualung and Scubapro do not sell to Leisurepro through American distributors. OK? Got it? See the issue yet? If I were an American retailer of Aqualung and Scubapro equipment, I would want to see an end to US importation of offshore purchased gray market Aqualung and Scubapro equipment. Now with this Supreme Court decision on copyright, I could see a third party US retailer (or several together in a class action) suing to stop that gray market. Let's see if Leisurepro stops offering Aqualung and Scubapro gray market equipment anytime soon; if so, well...

Daniel, I think you are the one who doesn't get it. How does LP always have the latest gear in stock? That is standard and not metric, printed in English and not another language as far ask packaging and instructions?

Santa Claus---NOT REAL
Easter Bunny--NOT REAL
SP & Aqua Lung do not sell to LP-- NOT REAL

It was devastating to me to learn that SC and EB were not real. It appears the same to those who believe the fanciful stories of SP and AL about LP. In the end though, we will all be ok and world will not fall apart--even though some things we believed in were not and are not real. Really, everything will be ok.

Unless the way LP always gets the latest items before the LDS's is through the magic of Santa and the Bunny. Hmmmm..... Maybe they are real after all. . . .

In which case . . . .

Dear Santa,
I have been really good this year. May I please have one 21 watt can light, a set of low pressure 85cf steel doubles with manifold, a doubles wing, 3 stage bottles, a yellow closed circuit surface marker (thanks for the orange one), and a couple of spools with stainless steel double enders. Oh and if there is room left in my stocking, that new Tektite LED strobe looks like it could be a lot of fun. Hey I could use it to signal your landing!

I love you Santa!
Love
USBB
aka UnderSeaBumbleBee
or Unwavering Santa & Bunny Believer

 

[theduckguru]

What the heck did "our free trade congress" have to do with this? This was a Supreme Court decision. I'm not sure that Scalia, Roberts et al are left wing trade activists.

Well, unless you think the courts ruled on constitutional grounds [just a heads up, copywrite is not part of the constitution] then the court ruled on laws passed by the legislature and executive branch of govt. The free trade congress reference was sarcasm.

 

[sardiverdan]

OK, here is how LP gets the latest and greatest gear from SP and others. There are large dive shops (won’t say who they are) that order a large amount of gear from someone like Scubapro. The dive shop orders the gear under the guise that it will be used for rental gear because SP does not track rental gear sales. If gear is bought as rental equipment the serial numbers are not added into the database for regular sales. If you don’t believe me, get a SP reg from LP and call SP and run the numbers, they will not have it listed as sold to anyone in their system. So what happens is that these larger shops buy “rental gear” and then turn around and sell that “rental gear” to outfits like LP and others. That is why getting LP to cover warranty issues is rather difficult at times.

 

[mike_s]

OK, here is how LP gets the latest and greatest gear from SP and others. There are large dive shops (won’t say who they are) that order a large amount of gear from someone like Scubapro. The dive shop orders the gear under the guise that it will be used for rental gear because SP does not track rental gear sales. If gear is bought as rental equipment the serial numbers are not added into the database for regular sales. If you don’t believe me, get a SP reg from LP and call SP and run the numbers, they will not have it listed as sold to anyone in their system. So what happens is that these larger shops buy “rental gear” and then turn around and sell that “rental gear” to outfits like LP and others. That is why getting LP to cover warranty issues is rather difficult at times.

It also **might** be 'ordered' by a 'certain' shop (in the US) that also operates LDS's at US military base overseas locations. Since all that gear is shipped out of the country, it's accounted for "differently". I'm just sayin'.


It's all a shell game. It's not like they don't know where this gear is going....

really doesn't matter. Not like our few posts are going to stop or change anything.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

OK, here is how LP gets the latest and greatest gear from SP and others. There are large dive shops (won’t say who they are) that order a large amount of gear from someone like Scubapro. The dive shop orders the gear under the guise that it will be used for rental gear because SP does not track rental gear sales. If gear is bought as rental equipment the serial numbers are not added into the database for regular sales. If you don’t believe me, get a SP reg from LP and call SP and run the numbers, they will not have it listed as sold to anyone in their system. So what happens is that these larger shops buy “rental gear” and then turn around and sell that “rental gear” to outfits like LP and others. That is why getting LP to cover warranty issues is rather difficult at times.

It does not make sense. These "large dive shops" still have to mark up the gear they sale to LP and pay redundant shipping cost from their facility to LP. LP then marks it up again, adds their shipping and sells for significantly below that a typical LDS does.