Cost of GUE/DIR training

[Mayor]

"He is currently using volunteers to assist him with things like filming training, but he needs more help than that, and, and, frankly, those volunteers should be paid for that work."

As one of these divers who likes to help out filming or running skills it's really not about the money. Every class I pick up something new in the water and out? So I feel it's a major plus for my diving and worth my time.

 

[Cave Diver]

During my apprentice course, we crossed paths with this instructor while he allowed students to sit on the bottom and tie in a jump spool to the crossover tunnel. It's out of control. Scary part is, once again, LOTS of people recommend him on TDS/CDF as an instructor.

We could either make a huge push to save tourist caves by increasing training standards (lots of work), or take the route most of us take and just don't talk about lots of sites to avoid them getting beat to snot (much easier!). That's why you don't see me getting all riled up when someone complains about a mark in the clay around the Hillier tunnel in Ginnie...it's Ginnie, these caves aren't realistic to protect.

I gotta say, I've never been a fan of the idea of "sacrificial caves." My class stressed conservation and proper skills and I guess I wrongly assumed that others do as well. I'm a bit saddened by the fact that the community accepts this as the "easier" route, rather than insisting people be held to higher standards.

 

[boulderjohn]

Perhaps it might be helpful to think in other terms as well.

Last year I went diving in Hawaii, where, with Nitrox and all, it cost me more than $150 per day for basic 2-tank reef dives.

When I did my cave training, I looked at the total cost and realized I wasn't paying a whole lot more per day for that training than I was paying for the Hawaiian reef dives, and I was getting oh-so-much-more.

(That was not GUE or UTD, though.)

 

[Scott L]

Can anyone offer an explanation of why there are 2 1/2 times the number of instructors in Europe as compared to the USA even though the conditions in Europeare far less attractive?

 

[LiteHedded]

Can anyone offer an explanation of why there are 2 1/2 times the number of instructors in Europe which has far less desirable conditions in which to dive compared to the USA?

the euro is strong?

 

[Scott L]

the euro is strong?

Compared to our moribund recovery and currency yes. It's all relative within the EU though...

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Why does it matter whether we are talking about ditch diggers or scientists? It's the perceived value of their work that drives their compensation.



Rumors and monopolies? Permanent vacations? Really? Reeaally??



If $600 for a class is going to drive someone to bankruptcy, maybe they need to rethink their choice of recreational activities. Bowling for example, you spend maybe $150 on a bowling ball and maybe $100 on bowling shoes. Maybe another $20 for a bowling ball bag and you are good to go. Leaves you about $330 for pizza and beer.

Perceived value. Well this is really a discussion to include a larger aspect of our society than just diving, so ill leave it with: sometime you dont get paid what you deserve--that applies to scuba instructors too.

Rumors and monopolies? Yes. Rumors that specific instructors are the best and will teach you everything you need to know. Monopolies? Why dont you look up how many DIR type instructors are in the NE region. 2? I would call that a monopoly, because the rest of the community here isnt comprised of highly skilled cave divers. In fact, i am laughed at when i bring up many of the concepts I learned in fundies (ie gas management). Do you think someone in this region should be expected to find fair training outside of GUE. Its much harder than you think.

 

[kanonfodr]

"He is currently using volunteers to assist him with things like filming training, but he needs more help than that, and, and, frankly, those volunteers should be paid for that work."

As one of these divers who likes to help out filming or running skills it's really not about the money. Every class I pick up something new in the water and out? So I feel it's a major plus for my diving and worth my time.

Bingo! While I'm not against a beer being bought in recognition for my services, a lot of what I see in the GUE community is a serious willingness to help others improve themselves, free of charge. It offers the intangible benefits, and sometimes it's just very enjoyable.

This weekend I will be helping out on a Farewell dive for one of our tech divers. I will be one of the support divers, which means I'm gonna get to shrug on doubles and jump off a boat into 180+ feet of water to go to 70 feet and watch them do their deco, while slinging an extra deco bottle or two in case someone needs it. My compensation? A free boat ride. But IMO it's an opportunity to learn lots by watching these guys and see if decompression diving is something I really want to do.

Sometimes, it's the little things that matter.

Peace,
Greg

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Sure, but if you dive into that enough "what you get for it" becomes entirely subjective and the Free Market is supposed to be a weighing system to determine what that means in quantifiable (money) terms (although lets not get into trying to define money or we'll be gazing at our navels all night long).

OK, but there are no discounts for extra work done on the part of the student. If i did all the work to figure out how to do all the skills and set up my gear I am paying for more than what I am getting

I think most of the Nobels for Economics for the past decade have been on imperfections in the free market system, and a lot of that having to do with information asymmetry. Welcome to how markets and capitalism work in the Real World.

Free markets arent perfect? How dare you say that

GUE isn't out to solve all the problems with the dive industry and fix every diver out there. People keep on making this mistake where they think that GUE owes them or the larger diving community something. It doesn't. GUE is fundamentally a selfish actor out to train divers that seek them out to the standards that they've set, and keep the instructors employed. Up until the point where demand becomes elastic, they can keep raising rates -- all the crappy divers in the whole rest of the world doesn't enter into the equation. That is not GUEs problem to solve. Neither is it GUEs problem to train any one particular diver out there, including anyone reading this thread -- GUE has a product and either you buy it, or you don't.

I dont feel like they market themselves that way. Surely, when this started, from what I have seen and read, they ARE trying to change the diving industry--the whole thing. PErhaps they could accomplish their goal by reducing fundies level instruction while keeping technical training fees higher. This would allow more people to afford the benefits of taking fundies and allow more people to taste the kool-aid

Listen, dont get me wrong. Many places on the boards I have said how I feel the classes are worth it. Perhaps if I weren't in school and poor I would feel ambivalent regarding this topic. I am not though, and I want the best training I can get (not always what I can afford). However, it seems that everyone here thinks I am being completely unreasonable with my comments. So perhaps I am completely wrong and only the rich should enjoy the underwater world with the skills necessary to make it back alive every time and without destroying the environment that EVERYONE enjoys while visiting.

 

[lamont]

I dont feel like they market themselves that way. Surely, when this started, from what I have seen and read, they ARE trying to change the diving industry--the whole thing.

No. The rest of the industry wasn't meeting their requirements. They formed GUE to meet their requirements. They hope to lead through example, but that isn't the point.

PErhaps they could accomplish their goal by reducing fundies level instruction while keeping technical training fees higher. This would allow more people to afford the benefits of taking fundies and allow more people to taste the kool-aid

That isn't the goal though.

Although the primer course does make it more accessible for a cheaper price to the recreational market as a workshop-styled course. I don't think the point there is to try to take over the world, though, I think its more to get back to the usefulness of the original workshop fundies that was lost when it went to the pass/fail tech diving gateway course.

Listen, dont get me wrong. Many places on the boards I have said how I feel the classes are worth it. Perhaps if I weren't in school and poor I would feel ambivalent regarding this topic. I am not though, and I want the best training I can get (not always what I can afford).

Yeah, I'd like to have that life as well. I'd quit my job and go back to school in a minute if it weren't for the fact that I like a couple of my high tech toys and I need to get my fix for my diving addiction...

I'd also like to screw supermodels while we're at it...

However, it seems that everyone here thinks I am being completely unreasonable with my comments. So perhaps I am completely wrong and only the rich should enjoy the underwater world with the skills necessary to make it back alive every time and without destroying the environment that EVERYONE enjoys while visiting.

PADI made diving training cheap for everyone and look what happened.

It'd be nice to have GUE-quality for a PADI-price, but I don't think you're going to get it....