Cost of GUE/DIR training

[ucfdiver]

For once I know EXACTLY who you're talking about ... surprised the crap outta me when I saw how his class was trashing the caves. Most of those guys wouldn't have passed my AOW class with that lack of buoyancy control ... and for sure they didn't belong in a cave diving like that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

During my apprentice course, we crossed paths with this instructor while he allowed students to sit on the bottom and tie in a jump spool to the crossover tunnel. It's out of control. Scary part is, once again, LOTS of people recommend him on TDS/CDF as an instructor.

We could either make a huge push to save tourist caves by increasing training standards (lots of work), or take the route most of us take and just don't talk about lots of sites to avoid them getting beat to snot (much easier!). That's why you don't see me getting all riled up when someone complains about a mark in the clay around the Hillier tunnel in Ginnie...it's Ginnie, these caves aren't realistic to protect.

 

[kanonfodr]

My Fundies instructor (Gideon Liew) spends time going all over the place: Florida, Sweden, China, MX, Hawaii, blase blase blase. He is compensated by the students for his airfares, any rentals, gas, etc. Sounds like a pretty cool life to me. For the T2 class he taught they dove a new-to-us wreck in 190ft of water that featured Trevally comparable in size to a Harley-Davidson.

But to get there he has had to do a LOT of diving, training, and spend lots of money on equipment. In essence he invested in himself and his diving to a point where it can support himself and his family. But I'm sure his life has lots of downsides as well: constant travel, "interesting" living conditions, and he's probably very proficient at quickly adapting to any diving environment but not everyone has that ability.

I'm very happy with my Fundies education, Gideon is very talented at putting information together so that even a dumb grunt like myself can understand the concepts. But I'm also happy I wasn't in his T2 class, those guys had to bust out almost a grand just in gas mixes :shocked2: . Plus they were staying in Waikiki hotels ($$$), splitting a rental car, and taking boats to all their dives.

Peace,
Greg

 

[rongoodman]

I've taught technical rescue courses, along with CPR/ACLS, but the amount of responsibility taken on by an instructor with students in an overhead(hard or soft) environment just makes me cringe!

 

[Adobo]

My Fundies instructor (Gideon Liew) spends time going all over the place: Florida, Sweden, China, MX, Hawaii, blase blase blase. He is compensated by the students for his airfares, any rentals, gas, etc. Sounds like a pretty cool life to me. For the T2 class he taught they dove a new-to-us wreck in 190ft of water that featured Trevally comparable in size to a Harley-Davidson.

While I am sure there are aspects of his job that are fun, there also realities that are, well, not so much. For example, on that T2 class, he takes that team on their experience dive. The instructor in most respects is doing this dive as a solo diver. T2 dives, as you know, are not like a 30ft reef dive where if something goes wrong you go to the surface. In a T2 dive, something goes a little wrong, everyone could be about to have a very bad day. And the first person who gets blamed is the instructor.

And as sexy is as it sounds to travel, when you do, you are away from home. How much money would you want to be paid to be away from your spouse and children? Okay, bad example. How much money would you want to be paid to be away from your dog?

I know a couple of guys who are trying to set up a T2 class and let me tell you, as much "globe trotting" and as much "money" that is involved, T2 instructors are not exactly lining up to teach the class.

But I'm also happy I wasn't in his T2 class, those guys had to bust out almost a grand just in gas mixes :shocked2: . Plus they were staying in Waikiki hotels ($$$), splitting a rental car, and taking boats to all their dives.

The instructor has pretty much nothing to do with lodging, airfare, gas fill costs, rental cars, etc. The only thing you can really associate to the instructor is the tuition cost.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

During my apprentice course, we crossed paths with this instructor while he allowed students to sit on the bottom and tie in a jump spool to the crossover tunnel. It's out of control. Scary part is, once again, LOTS of people recommend him on TDS/CDF as an instructor.

We could either make a huge push to save tourist caves by increasing training standards (lots of work), or take the route most of us take and just don't talk about lots of sites to avoid them getting beat to snot (much easier!). That's why you don't see me getting all riled up when someone complains about a mark in the clay around the Hillier tunnel in Ginnie...it's Ginnie, these caves aren't realistic to protect.

We encountered them at Peacock and Madison Blue. Peacock's obviously a training cave ... as evidenced by the many "skid marks" you see all over the place. Madison Blue's just too damn pretty to have that sort of thing happening to ... instructors probably shouldn't be doing training dives there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[kanonfodr]

And as sexy is as it sounds to travel, when you do, you are away from home. How much money would you want to be paid to be away from your spouse and children? Okay, bad example. How much money would you want to be paid to be away from your dog?

Neither of those work for me, I don't even have a goldfish much less any human tie-downs. But, having spent extended times away from home in hot-so-hospitable areas I get your point.

The instructor has pretty much nothing to do with lodging, airfare, gas fill costs, rental cars, etc. The only thing you can really associate to the instructor is the tuition cost.

Oh, true. But shelling out is shelling out. We had one guy flying from Alaska, the other two I think were from Europe. The tuition cost is one thing, but when traveling for instruction all the little details add up quickly. I would not be surprised if that trip totaled at least $5k for each of them. And 1 of them I know did not pass. :/

Peace,
Greg

 

[rjack321]

The thing I don't like about flying in (or to some extent flying to) a very small pool of instructors is that they aren't part of your posse and really never can be.

Quite frankly beyond a certain level instructors can't just swoop in and teach a course anymore. Logistics are just too much a part of doing the dives. This is ok if I actually want to go south and learn how Fort Lauderdale does T2 and T2+ level dives (could be fun if I could afford the paying vacation). But its less useful here and for many other localities.

 

[LiteHedded]

The thing I don't like about flying in (or to some extent flying to) a very small pool of instructors is that they aren't part of your posse and really never can be.

Quite frankly beyond a certain level instructors can't just swoop in and teach a course anymore. Logistics are just too much a part of doing the dives. This is ok if I actually want to go south and learn how Fort Lauderdale does T2 and T2+ level dives (could be fun if I could afford the paying vacation). But its less useful here and for many other localities.

their gloves are more fun to wear

 

[TSandM]

There is NOTHING you could pay me to teach technical or cave diving . . . just working as a DM with open water classes can scare you out of a year's growth. When I read Rick Murcar's story about having to dive 100 feet down to catch a student who had lost buoyancy control and panicked on deco . . . on her DECO GAS . . . I shuddered. When I read the story of the man who realized he was 900 feet back in a Florida cave during his class, and panicked and bolted -- leaving the instructor with the other, uncertified student, and a decision as to whether to chase the bolting diver and leave the other student alone, or stay with the other student and not know why the guy was bolting . . . No, you couldn't pay me enough to deal with panic in an overhead, or a student plummeting to the bottom on a high O2 mix.

People who teach those classes earn their keep. All we're quibbling about is what that keep ought to be, and Peter always points out to me that there is no "ought to be". Things are priced where the people selling them want to price them, and you buy them or you don't. If enough people don't, the price will in most cases come down, or the item becomes unavailable. GUE instructors can clearly sell enough of their services, at the prices they are asking, to satisfy them, or they'd change.

 

[boulderjohn]

OK, my experience is UTD, but I think I can offer an interesting perspective.

When we go on our 6.5 hour drive to our training location in New Mexico, our UTD instructor has to go through a very complex schedule to deal with the variety of students on that trip, and it can be a scheduling nightmare for everyone. He could use some help, especially with the more basic students. He is currently using volunteers to assist him with things like filming training, but he needs more help than that, and, and, frankly, those volunteers should be paid for that work. UTD clearly recognizes that it needs more help, because it is pushing its new DM and recreational instructor classes. Someone like me (Tech 2 and an experienced instructor for another agency) would be a logical person to fill one of those roles. When I look at how much it would cost for the training, the cost of the travel to get the training, the time it would take from my life, and the hotel bills during that time, I figure it would take me far, far too long to break even, despite the high cost of UTD instruction.

My UTD instructor just spent a relative fortune (in my financial terms) and more vacation time than many people get in a year to add two more certification cards that he is allowed to teach. In the case of one of those, the only person in the area who is about ready to take that certification (Trimix) is me, and I can't start because you can't do these classes alone--you have to have a teammate. Therefore, he will have no potential students for his expensive certification for a while yet. For the other one, I don't know if there is anyone in our area who will be taking it in the foreseeable future.

So maybe some people are making money hand over fist, but in other cases I am not sure that people are making enough to pay for their training.