Cost of GUE/DIR training

[Gareth]

Students on a GUE fundamentals course get quite a bit of my time.

They get the time it takes to set up the course, and source them all the kit they need to borrow from me. the time it takes me to actually go get that kit and check it's all working. Then the time it takes me to write and send several emails leading up to the course, ensuring that everything ir organised, from their accommodation to gas logistics and timescales. Then they get four days of my time. This begins at 0800 in the morning and can stop at 2100, as we will usually continue talking into the diving. During those four days I have to be attentive to their needs 100% of the time. I cannot simultaneously teach another course, I am theirs for 4 days solid.

When the course is over, they get my time writing up the course notes and submitting it all to GUE, which is mandatory for 100% of my students.

When all of this is over, they get my time answering follow-up emails and questions.

Next weekend I am meeting someone for a day's coaching as a follow up to their fundies course, because they are still struggling with something. I am not charging them for this.

GUE does not set a course price. It doesn't even recommend a course price. The instructors set the price based on what they feel their professional time is worth.

I have taught for other agencies, but if I am honestIi have never felt like a true professional before. What does professional mean to me? Firstly, it means I have a true standard to adhere to, and a duty to do everything I can to get my students to the bar they expect to be at, even if this means going above and beyond. Secondly, it means I expect to get paid a professional fee.

If people feel that fee is too much, they can shop around, other instructors might not charge the same. I charge a fee I believe represents the effort I have put into becoming an instructor, and the effort i put into being an instructor.

Gareth Burrows
GUE Instructor.

 

[LiteHedded]

the fundamentals cost doesn't bug me too much. with the added day and all.

in a perfect world I'd like to see it lower of course. because I think it's a fantastic class that should be accessible to anyone, but I know that's not feasible. I can't comment on the primer as I've never seen a class before.

 

[iztok]

I am so envious you guys have GUE/UTD instructors so close! That is all I am saying!

 

[BB1]

What added day??

How is the course normally broken down over there?

Our course outline is:

3 evenings of theory followed by...
1 day in pool/confined water With a reserve day if the skills are not nailed then...

Next weekend is open water dives with Sunday in reserve if needed...

Does this seem a bit light on in water time?

How does it compare to USA courses?

the fundamentals cost doesn't bug me too much. with the added day and all.

 

[Gareth]

What added day??

How is the course normally broken down over there?

Our course outline is:

3 evenings of theory followed by...
1 day in pool/confined water With a reserve day if the skills are not nailed then...

Next weekend is open water dives with Sunday in reserve if needed...

Does this seem a bit light on in water time?

How does it compare to USA courses?

I do 1 full day of academics, and include the swim test in the evening of the first day. Then I do 3 full days at a dive site. That's in the UK.

 

[LiteHedded]

i think it used to be 3 days. it's 4 now

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

OK, but there are no discounts for extra work done on the part of the student. If i did all the work to figure out how to do all the skills and set up my gear I am paying for more than what I am getting

It doesn't work that way. When I took Fundies (the first time, with Brando) I had about 900 dives. I'd been diving with DIR-trained divers for about three years, and thought I had the skills pretty well dialed in. Boy was I mistaken.

One thing any good instructor does is look at where you're at and raise the performance bar sufficient to challenge you. The GUE course isn't a "checklist" class where you perform a skill once and call it good ... there are degrees of good, and your instructor will always find ways to make you push yourself past your limit.

This is what differentiates a regular class from a great class ... at any level ... and it's why you're paying the money you pay for this type of training. You will ALWAYS get what you pay for ... and then some, in most cases.

I dont feel like they market themselves that way. Surely, when this started, from what I have seen and read, they ARE trying to change the diving industry--the whole thing.

No ... you are mistaken. If GUE were trying to change the diving industry there would be many more GUE instructors than there currently are. The fact that they are uncompromising in terms of what they demand from their instructors is a solid indicator that they are not concerned with how much market share they can capture. Their priority is quality ... and in all things, you pay extra for quality.

PErhaps they could accomplish their goal by reducing fundies level instruction while keeping technical training fees higher. This would allow more people to afford the benefits of taking fundies and allow more people to taste the kool-aid

Listen, dont get me wrong. Many places on the boards I have said how I feel the classes are worth it. Perhaps if I weren't in school and poor I would feel ambivalent regarding this topic. I am not though, and I want the best training I can get (not always what I can afford).

Hey, I'd like a BMW X5 ... but I can only afford a Honda Element. If BMW would only reduce their prices, think about how many more people would be driving around in an X5. I want the best car I can get (not always what I can afford).

However, it seems that everyone here thinks I am being completely unreasonable with my comments.

I don't think unreasonable is the best term ... naive, perhaps ... or looking at it from a perspective of entitlement. Given your comments, I think you have no real idea how much effort, time, dedication, and money it takes to become a GUE instructor ... or how hard they work to provide their students with a quality class. You seem to have this opinion that scuba instructors live the good life, and that classes are like being on vacation. That's far from the reality.

You need to get out and work with a couple of good instructors sometime ... you'd be amazed at how hard they work for what they charge.

So perhaps I am completely wrong and only the rich should enjoy the underwater world with the skills necessary to make it back alive every time and without destroying the environment that EVERYONE enjoys while visiting.

Diving's not a cheap recreational activity. If you can't afford it, then perhaps you should be doing something else with your disposable dollars. But in all things there are degrees of quality. You buy the quality you can afford, and if you want higher quality you must first earn the money to pay for it. That's how the world works ... in all things.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[LiteHedded]

I don't care if gue costs more. I think it should, in fact. It's the arbitrary increases I dislike.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

It doesn't work that way. When I took Fundies (the first time, with Brando) I had about 900 dives. I'd been diving with DIR-trained divers for about three years, and thought I had the skills pretty well dialed in. Boy was I mistaken.

One thing any good instructor does is look at where you're at and raise the performance bar sufficient to challenge you. The GUE course isn't a "checklist" class where you perform a skill once and call it good ... there are degrees of good, and your instructor will always find ways to make you push yourself past your limit.

This is what differentiates a regular class from a great class ... at any level ... and it's why you're paying the money you pay for this type of training. You will ALWAYS get what you pay for ... and then some, in most cases.

Well your assumption here is that because you got a lot out of it other divers will. What if an instructor (GUE or otherwise) doesnt give you that. Should you get all of your money back? Some of it? Surely, not every class is a treasure chest of greatness that some people get out of it, and for some might even just be an evaluation by a pickier evaluator. So in some cases you DONT get what you paid for, and you get less. GUE instructors, and even the greatest non GUE instructors, are human after all.

No ... you are mistaken. If GUE were trying to change the diving industry there would be many more GUE instructors than there currently are. The fact that they are uncompromising in terms of what they demand from their instructors is a solid indicator that they are not concerned with how much market share they can capture. Their priority is quality ... and in all things, you pay extra for quality.

I think you are mistaken, at least in the present. Sure, as Lamont commented, GUE was initially formed to support the WKPP with divers that were at least minimally prepared to learn (at least that is what I understand). However, they ARE trying to change the industry, but not in the way PADI and NAUI have. Instead they are trying to create higher standards and higher expectations. They ARE concerned with market share, just not in the same way PADI and NAUI are; they dont cater to the lowest common denominator and undercut their standards for progress. Just look at how many instructors they are building up. And, if you want t o include UTD in this category of dive educators than there is a blossoming of DIR/high standard dive educators everywhere. Just because they arent flooding the industry DOESNT mean they arent trying to change it.

Hey, I'd like a BMW X5 ... but I can only afford a Honda Element. If BMW would only reduce their prices, think about how many more people would be driving around in an X5. I want the best car I can get (not always what I can afford).

Diving's not a cheap recreational activity. If you can't afford it, then perhaps you should be doing something else with your disposable dollars. But in all things there are degrees of quality. You buy the quality you can afford, and if you want higher quality you must first earn the money to pay for it. That's how the world works ... in all things.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Youre right, diving isnt cheap. But, I really dont like being told to find another hobby/sport to take part in than the one i love, which is SCUBA. Can I afford it? Probably not to the extent that some on this board can (with a garage full of gear), but I do know a few friends of mine that are in the same position as me and work hard to find deals, take care of what we have, and still dive safely in places that will allow us to grow as divers. All I am saying is that perhaps the burden should not be so high for some things, while for others it should. For instance, my assertion that fundies could be cheaper while tech training could be the same or slightly higher.

Further, i dont accept the idea that to learn to be a good, safe diver should be onerously expensive. GUE keeps A LOT of divers from going to it, because it is expensive. These are potentially amazing and safe divers, that given the correct initial exposure would probably continue high into the GUE training scheme. But, because they never get a real taste of what a GUE course is like, because of the high barrier to entry (price tag shock) will never know, notice, or experience the difference great instruction can make and just settle with crap.

I DO NOT believe this should be a sport of the rich, and the awesome sights underwater should be available to EVERYONE. Perhaps that is naive, but forgive me, I am still young and hold on to young ideals.

However, like i commented before, I have paid higher prices for quality instruction, and I will continue to do so, because I think it is a worthwhile use of my limited resources.

 

[TSandM]

To reach back a page and respond to Laura's post -- I didn't mean that good mentors were a REPLACEMENT for a good class . . . but we're talking about people who simply can't afford the classes. I dive, as I know Laura does, with college students who can't even afford to own all their gear. I have friends who are young people with small children and live on tight budgets. I know other folks who are retirees and live on fixed incomes. Now, one could argue that anybody can budget and save, and over a long enough period, afford a couple thousand dollars for a class -- and yeah, if you prioritize the training that highly, you'll get it done. But if you'd rather go out to dinner once in a while, a good mentor is better than nothing.