Cost of GUE/DIR training

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's out there, James. It cost me $2200 to go from Cavern through Full Cave, not including travel and living expenses ... and to my concern I got full value for my money. Price shopping is a problem at all levels of diving ... around here the bigger stores offer $129 OW classes, figuring to make up the loss of the class by selling overpriced gear. And you would weep to see what kind of diver those classes produce. It's a problem with the whole "free-market" approach to instruction ... quality only sells to those who think quality is important. Most people shop for the best price. Enforcing standards will only work if you want diving to become far more heavily regulated than it is ... and that will produce side-effects that I doubt you'd find desireable (access to those areas you mentioned might go away entirely, due to liability concerns).

In any free-market business, that which sells, survives. It's ultimately up to the consumer to decide how much a product or service is worth. The best approach therefore isn't to regulate the service, but to educate the consumer as to the real value of what they're buying.

Either way, there is no simple solution ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[BB1]

For those complaining about $600 for fundies course spare a thought for us down here - same course is $1000!

 

[ScubaFeenD]

I guess the question is how much do people think a should a dive instructor should reasonably make? That would go a long way to indicate whether or not GUE is too expensive.

Because let me assure you all that there are jobs that require FAR more work for A LOT less pay than even the worst paid scuba instructor--and they at least get to dive for a living.

 

[LiteHedded]

I kind of agree. I see people around cave country who are charging $300 per person for a NAUI Cave 1 course and letting their wife teach it, and they sign off on the card because they're also teaching a cavern course that day. Then again, I see a few of the more expensive NAUI/NACD instructors completely burned out and teaching because it's such great money they can't afford to stop.

I wish there were a better way of getting more energetic people into cave diving, for two reasons....

#1- I know of several exciting dives that I just can't get setup without help due to work schedule. I'm willing to alternate setup weekends (IE team A sets team B up weekend 1, then flip flip) Manatee Springs is an absolutely massive cave that goes and goes and goes...all shallow. I know of maybe 3 other divers interested in attempting a push there who would be willing to do setup dives for each other on alternating weekends. Another site, state owned, scooterable to nearly 4k, less than 150ft, and EOL unexplored is sitting there with nothing being done because no one has the time to donate a week to it, nor the team to set it up over a weekend. Then there's one which is state owned, EOL less than 7 or 8k, and scooterable (with a permit) for most of it, and no major exploration going on there, either. Massive exploration could be done by having a group camp out, setup Friday night, push Saturday, cleanup Sunday.

#2- Next, there's a major lack of new divers coming into the sport who stick with it. We're getting lots of vacation divers who come twice a year, but cavern/intro buddies are few and far between for an up and coming diver. NFL has an average income of under $35k for most areas that I've looked up, and that means that lots of individuals who are interested can't swing the cost. I spoke with a cavern diver this weekend who I was doing a few drills with and he told me that a primary reason to take intro was so he could find more buddies, as he couldn't find any at the cavern level...he's posted online and asks around often, that's not a good thing for the sport.

I'm aware of one instructor who essentially donates his time to anyone who's in school and wants to take a cave class. Out of the students of his I know, all but one of them actively cave dive almost every other weekend, and many participate in community events, site cleanups, relining caves, landowner negotiations, etc. Lamar Hires (who marketed the first commercial bp/w) refused to even pay $4 for Sheck's book when he started cave diving, and Wes Skiles donated it, then later gave him a free class.

I said all that to say this...there is a need for quality, affordable training. Some agency (GUE or otherwise) would thrill me if they would focus on enforcing standards for courses, while providing a more reasonable path to become an instructor. Enforce tightly written standards and the quality would improve a ton, at least from the poor instruction I've seen (this is GUE's strongest point IMO), set MAP for the classes (this gets rid of price shopping students), and actively seek qualified individuals to teach. $5600+expenses isn't affordable training to get from OW to cave 2. The NAUI $300 course isn't quality. There has to be a middle ground. A $1000-1200 cave course is completely affordable and would provide adequate income for an enthusiast diver to train new divers, yet maybe not make a living teaching...and I'm 100% OK with that, we already have enough burned out instructors.

dayo?

btw I'm all for charging more for GUE education. it's the best dive training in the world, hands down, in my opinion. it's the arbitrary price increases that get me when they're already ridiculously expensive. and then the ones who are happy to loan you a set of doubles out of their garage, for a nominal fee. on top of the two grand, plus expenses.

 

[Scott L]

Like anything other desired product or service in your cross-hairs, you wait until you have the funds saved, tap credit, etc. Berating GUE to lower prices is in direct contradiction to their mission.

They choose not to use classes as a loss-leader with a hard sell to purchase their products unlike most LDS's. At least that was the experience with my instructor and he is the general manager of the organization's retail division with most to gain...

 

[Scott L]

If GUE initiated a program to make classes more affordable for the best qualified young divers in college or new graduates that would obviously be a very laudable act. I would be the first to donate to such a cause, if enacted...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I guess the question is how much do people think a should a dive instructor should reasonably make? That would go a long way to indicate whether or not GUE is too expensive.

Because let me assure you all that there are jobs that require FAR more work for A LOT less pay than even the worst paid scuba instructor--and they at least get to dive for a living.

Yeah, sure ... and how many of those jobs require you to carry multi-million dollar liability insurance policies? Or purchase several thousands of dollars of equipment, which you'll be replacing on a fairly regular basis?

I'd be willing to bet that the typical GUE instructor owns a minimum of $20K worth of gear, just to teach the classes they teach. A typical "work" day runs 10-15 hours, and usually longer for the instructor than just the time they're in class with students.

Teaching a quality class is hard work ... you're not just going through the motions and parroting lessons you learned from your agency. There's a reason why a GUE class is more expensive than the class you'll typically purchase from your local dive shop ... it's because the instructors had to work harder for their credentials, and pay more to maintain them. That cost ... as with all businesses ... gets passed on to the consumer.

As with all things in life ... you get what you pay for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

GUE has become a pricey brand. There are other instructors (many of whom used to teach for GUE, are GUE trained themselves, or just have a clue) offering good courses without the GUE badge. The problem is that a NACD or NAUI etc card does not have the value that a GUE card has for some people because of all the other crappy instructors issuing the same card for less work.

More than GUE lowering their prices or anything like that I would love the other agencies to clean house. Unfortunately for some of them, the idiot instructors are installed at the top.

 

[ucfdiver]

GUE has become a pricey brand. There are other instructors (many of whom used to teach for GUE, are GUE trained themselves, or just have a clue) offering good courses without the GUE badge. The problem is that a NACD or NAUI etc card does not have the value that a GUE card has for some people because of all the other crappy instructors issuing the same card for less work.

More than GUE lowering their prices or anything like that I would love the other agencies to clean house. Unfortunately for some of them, the idiot instructors are installed at the top.

I spoke with the president of one of the aforementioned agencies about an instructor who was breaking standards and was told "We hope that word of mouth weeds them out". (Read: Implied "because we sure aren't going to!")

I spoke with 2 NSS-CDS board members about having students fill out a class report, signed by the instructor. This would have included a dive log and reviewed all skills. Neither one brought it up, even though both said they would.

I'm sorry, but cleaning house in some of these agencies stands about as much of a chance as a abstinence pledge rally hosted at a brothel.

 

[rjack321]

I'm sorry, but cleaning house in some of these agencies stands about as much of a chance as a abstinence pledge rally hosted at a brothel.

Totally agree, not gonna happen.

Which is why I only recommend instructors I know somehow regardless of agency. (GUE has had some crappy ones too and its great that they eventually leave but doesn't do a student much good who tried to buy "brand name" at the time.)