The money I spent on my Fundies class with Bob Sherwood was worth every penny. It was the best money I've spent on training to date. Our class was five days of 12hr + days and I would have paid more, just glad Bob did not ask for more. 
Cost of GUE/DIR training
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what do you think the reasons are?
not to be a pill, but all diving instruction, from OW to lemonwedgetrimixinstructortrainer takes time, money, and more time.
from the supplies instructors need to purchase (my friend just spend literally hundreds of dollars on the leadership materials to upgrade all her stuff to the newest PADI stuff so her butt is covered) to our memberships fees (my NAUI instructor fees were $145), to the insurance we have to buy (554.67 this year)
being an instructor and maintaining active status just from THAT standpoint alone is expensive.
then you add in the time spent actually teaching... you do the math.... say you don't want to teach a dozen students at a time, or your agency limits you to 3 students at a time, start crunching those numbers.
fundamentals for example @ 600 per student. 3 students. 1800 bucks. ya, sounds like good money at first blush...
then start looking at the time involved. 12 plus hour days for 5 to 6 days not even counting travel time. we'll assume no one is remedial and everything rocks for a 6 day class (run over two weekends) with fridays being partial days. probably 60 hrs minimum counting inwater time. (and in bob's class we went from 8am till 10 or 11 at night)
this isn't even looking at the time involved preparing to teach the class, the time spend driving/flying to get there, etc... where you can't work your 'regular' job
how much is YOUR time worth, do that math and tell me what you'd charge for a class?
also take into account how many classes can you teach a year (considering people generally like to take classes on weekends, and often classes run over 2 weekends and you won't likely fill EVERY weekend)
not to be a pill, but all diving instruction, from OW to lemonwedgetrimixinstructortrainer takes time, money, and more time.
from the supplies instructors need to purchase (my friend just spend literally hundreds of dollars on the leadership materials to upgrade all her stuff to the newest PADI stuff so her butt is covered) to our memberships fees (my NAUI instructor fees were $145), to the insurance we have to buy (554.67 this year)
being an instructor and maintaining active status just from THAT standpoint alone is expensive.
then you add in the time spent actually teaching... you do the math.... say you don't want to teach a dozen students at a time, or your agency limits you to 3 students at a time, start crunching those numbers.
fundamentals for example @ 600 per student. 3 students. 1800 bucks. ya, sounds like good money at first blush...
then start looking at the time involved. 12 plus hour days for 5 to 6 days not even counting travel time. we'll assume no one is remedial and everything rocks for a 6 day class (run over two weekends) with fridays being partial days. probably 60 hrs minimum counting inwater time. (and in bob's class we went from 8am till 10 or 11 at night)
this isn't even looking at the time involved preparing to teach the class, the time spend driving/flying to get there, etc... where you can't work your 'regular' job
how much is YOUR time worth, do that math and tell me what you'd charge for a class?
also take into account how many classes can you teach a year (considering people generally like to take classes on weekends, and often classes run over 2 weekends and you won't likely fill EVERY weekend)
now that you mention it, those are overpriced too
and the reasons for the price increase (at least here) are quite amusing
I just want to make the observation that not everyone who wants to take Fundies, or would benefit from it, intends to go on to any kind of tech diving. And $600 is VERY high on the spectrum of recreational dive class costs, and I'm sure it is a barrier for some people who would like to take the class. But it's pretty reasonable compensation for the time and effort that's put into it by the instructor, I think -- and it's not terribly out of line with the cost of the Intro to Tech classes that are given around here.
The cave class costs are a bit harder to understand and to stomach. As I discussed in another thread on another board, my Full Cave was four days and cost me $800 (which is pretty standard going for Mexican cave instructors) whereas Cave 2 from the ZG guys is over $2K, and is one day longer. But as long as they can fill classes, they have every right to charge what people will pay. It means, sadly, that I will never have a GUE Cave 2 cert, but it's not something I have any RIGHT to -- if I can't afford it, it's like a Patek Phillippe watch, I'll just have to do without
The cave class costs are a bit harder to understand and to stomach. As I discussed in another thread on another board, my Full Cave was four days and cost me $800 (which is pretty standard going for Mexican cave instructors) whereas Cave 2 from the ZG guys is over $2K, and is one day longer. But as long as they can fill classes, they have every right to charge what people will pay. It means, sadly, that I will never have a GUE Cave 2 cert, but it's not something I have any RIGHT to -- if I can't afford it, it's like a Patek Phillippe watch, I'll just have to do without
OP
LiteHedded
Contributor
I just want to make the observation that not everyone who wants to take Fundies, or would benefit from it, intends to go on to any kind of tech diving. And $600 is VERY high on the spectrum of recreational dive class costs, and I'm sure it is a barrier for some people who would like to take the class. But it's pretty reasonable compensation for the time and effort that's put into it by the instructor, I think -- and it's not terribly out of line with the cost of the Intro to Tech classes that are given around here.
The cave class costs are a bit harder to understand and to stomach. As I discussed in another thread on another board, my Full Cave was four days and cost me $800 (which is pretty standard going for Mexican cave instructors) whereas Cave 2 from the ZG guys is over $2K, and is one day longer. But as long as they can fill classes, they have every right to charge what people will pay. It means, sadly, that I will never have a GUE Cave 2 cert, but it's not something I have any RIGHT to -- if I can't afford it, it's like a Patek Phillippe watch, I'll just have to do without
no one around here can afford it either
the only people taking the classes are flying in from out of town for it. those guys also charge an insane amount for fundamentals down there dont they?
ucfdiver
Contributor
A dive buddy of mine paid $1000 I think it was 5-6 years ago. With 3 students and 2 course a month, that's $6000, or $72k/year for a job that doesn't require a college degree, working 10 days a month. More if you're renting gear to out of town students.
I'm not saying it's not worth it, the c2 divers I've been with are all great, and they fill courses, so clearly it *IS* worth it to enough people...my violin just isn't in tune with Lauras
Diving is far too expensive. GUE classes are too expensive. PAdi's are too.
And doing the basic math for fundies, basically a 4 days class, let's say 36-40 hours for the instructor, it's 1800/40 = 45h/hour (assuming 3 people are signing).
With this perspective, I'm not sure I want to be a GUE instructor, as I will not be able to take anymore classes and get all the cool stuff which go with them
The GUE-F class will cost much more than 600 by the way (35$ min membership + 75$ GUEF subscription, then hotel, trip, gas, etc ... it gets close 1000$ total)
So yes, even if it seems expensive, put it into perspective, and then find someone who is going to say he regrets to have spent the money.
To the OP:
Like Rainer (waouw, cool) I had a ranger first and sold it for a very decent amount because it is good BC a lot of people like.
Then getting a BPW rig can go from 800+ with Halcyon, to ~350 with HOG, and even less if you go ebay (169$ for a used halcyon wing for example):
Halcyon PioneerTech SCUBA Wing 27 lb lift - eBay (item 390249605430 end time Nov-06-10 12:14:40 PDT)
and get a plate, even SS for 50$ is not that complicated. The harness is less than 10$. 40$ maybe with the knife and the crotch.
I think if you have a very good condition ranger, you can easily get a BPW rig without loosing too much money there.
And doing the basic math for fundies, basically a 4 days class, let's say 36-40 hours for the instructor, it's 1800/40 = 45h/hour (assuming 3 people are signing).
With this perspective, I'm not sure I want to be a GUE instructor, as I will not be able to take anymore classes and get all the cool stuff which go with them
The GUE-F class will cost much more than 600 by the way (35$ min membership + 75$ GUEF subscription, then hotel, trip, gas, etc ... it gets close 1000$ total)
So yes, even if it seems expensive, put it into perspective, and then find someone who is going to say he regrets to have spent the money.
To the OP:
Like Rainer (waouw, cool) I had a ranger first and sold it for a very decent amount because it is good BC a lot of people like.
Then getting a BPW rig can go from 800+ with Halcyon, to ~350 with HOG, and even less if you go ebay (169$ for a used halcyon wing for example):
Halcyon PioneerTech SCUBA Wing 27 lb lift - eBay (item 390249605430 end time Nov-06-10 12:14:40 PDT)
and get a plate, even SS for 50$ is not that complicated. The harness is less than 10$. 40$ maybe with the knife and the crotch.
I think if you have a very good condition ranger, you can easily get a BPW rig without loosing too much money there.
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OP
LiteHedded
Contributor
A dive buddy of mine paid $1000 I think it was 5-6 years ago. With 3 students and 2 course a month, that's $6000, or $72k/year for a job that doesn't require a college degree, working 10 days a month.
I'm not saying it's not worth it, the c2 divers I've been with are all great, and they fill courses, so clearly it *IS* worth it to enough people...my violin just isn't in tune with Lauras
whatever the market will bear I suppose. look at the increase in the price of these classes compared to the increase from other agencies (zero)
just had an interesting conversation with some people at ginnie about this the other day. this guy told me the price of his training in 1989. it costs about the same today
and for what it's worth I owned a zeagle bc and had zero trouble selling it on here to someone. I say ditch it and get the bp
I don't blame the ZG guys for charging high fees for Fundies. Why teach a 4 or 5 day Fundies class for $600, when you can teach a 5 day Cave 1 instead for $1800? They don't seem to have any trouble filling their classes, or teaching as many of them as they want, which is really a measure of what the consumer thinks of the price to value ratio
ucfdiver
Contributor
I seriously doubt it. Maybe compare it to a tech school?
None of these cave instructors are hurting. I know a few who are teaching 2 classes a week at least 2-3 weeks a month, at $600/person, plus regs/doubles/light rental for the students who fly in or damage gear during class. I bet taxes are..."minimal"...to say the least, and you're bringing in $2400-3600/mo for diving. Top it off by working part time at a dive shop (a little income), and free tank fills. It's clearly worth it. My biggest fear is the saturated market created by the tons of instructors seeking the financial aspect of it, and I applaud GUE for limiting that to some extent.
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